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Midair Collision over Denver

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Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#231
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to impress upon folks who have never been in a small plane like that just how ... yeah ... how much it feels like you're hanging onto a kite. Years ago I was doing pilot training in a Cessna 152. A coworker of mine was a retired Navy captain and instructor at the TOPGUN program, with hundreds of carrier landings in an F-14. He looked at me like I was crazy. He said those little planes were deathtraps and…

I'm glad my Dad's not flying any longer. He was doing very long (multiple stops for re-fueling, flying on some form of breathing tank[0]) trips. He can go on for hours (and we let him) about stories of how he almost didn't make it home due to X or Y[1]. And he joked that every gauge/gadget on the dashboard that didn't come with the plane was there because "if I had it when X happened, X wouldn't have happened" (...or…

This sounds like my dad. He was a skillful pilot but enjoyed risk too much to be a “good” pilot. Died of lymphoma 30 years ago, so it never caught up with him. He flew a lot for a private pilot, over ten thousand hours,so had a few of those stories too.

I flew with him as a child enough to have experienced some of them myself. I remember:

- An inflight electrical fire, at night, over the Sierras.

- A very tense IFR final into Monterey, at night in fog, in a twin Comanche just ahead of a Learjet when the controller had a power outage and lost radio contact.

- A test flight in a STOL Maule Rocket that ended with stalling and bouncing in the rough just short of the 7600 hundred foot runway at Stead AFB. The gear collapsed during roll out and damaged the wing and prop, but there were no injuries. Sadly, Maule went out of business and the aircraft was never repaired.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes things a lot harder for the Cirrus pilot. Easy to get the lineup slightly wrong with for example some wind correction in from far away. Crazy that ATC had them do this at the same altitude as conflicting traffic with no underlying approach as a safety net. You can ask someone not to go through final, but that's very easy to miss judge from a couple of miles away.

Slightly harder? I'd agree with that. A lot harder? 20 hour student pilots make visual turns from base to final from 3 miles out every day. This is not Top Gun material.

I have an instructor rating, and in teaching GA I've seen this hundreds of times also from experienced pilots. It's all easy in theory until in practice there is some sun in your eyes, the nose is pointing away from the runway due to wind and something inside needs attention (even more likely in a Cirrus, lots of tools = lots of distractions). Takes all of 10 seconds to be completely through the centerline and if reallt unlucky into the path of another aircraft.

Can't really blame this on the Cirrus pilot alone. They probably made the mistake here, but they were not set up for succes (no navigation available as backup) and ATC had zero safety net (both at the same altitude). So my prediction is that the final report will include recommended changes and not just "pilot error shouldn't fly through final, any student pilot could do that"

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, would you rather the plane crash at 30mph at a chosen point or at 200mph wherever it leads?

Once you’re under chute, the airplane is picking the arrival spot.

Yes, but you get to choose when you pull the chute, whereas if you lose say, your elevator control, You don't get any choices here.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#234
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the issue that in many cases people tried to save the airframe rather than activate the parachute, knowing the aircraft was likely to be written off, and died doing so. It the same when the pilot is equipped with a parachute.

Yes, and this happens also in many other arenas. I've only done a bit of flying, but in my experience in speed sports such as Downhill ski racing and auto racing, you must be mentally able to switch your goals in a fraction of a second, from [win the race] to [save the run] to [save your life], without hesitation. Sometimes you succeed in [save your life] and are still on-track / on-piste pointing in the right direct…

Beyond that, sometimes the [save your life] mode should include [sacrifice the equipment to save your life].

I remember an incident from one of my auto racing instructors. In a race, coming into a downhill turn (Diving turn at Lime Rock) at triple-digit mph, he found that he had no brakes. So he very rapidly pushed in the clutch, redlined the engine, grabbed 2nd gear, and popped the clutch with some steering input. The result was that he spun the car with enough control to crash into the barriers with the back end first. It was the end of that Porsche, but it would have been anyway, and he walked away.

Or, another guy I knew who was at logging school, 150' up pruning in a pine tree, realized that it was getting way out of balance and was about to get violent. He cut to just the right point, then threw the multi-$1000 chainsaw as far as he could away from him, and hung on for life to his harness and tree strap as the tree whipped back and forth until the oscillations dampened. He got kind of beat up, but climbed down and walked away.

It's key to be ready to completely change your mindset in a flash.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#235
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The weight is so critical that the 7-seat plane can realistically only seat 4-5 adults. I think you overlooked an important factor there. The plane was indeed designed to realistically seat 7 adults. The issue is that in the 50 years since the plane was originally designed, the average weight of adults (in the US) increased by about 18% [0] and the average adult woman today weighs as much as the average adult man i…

6 * 1.18 = 7.08 people, so that could explain 1 adult. I think the "some adults, some kids" is more significant - similar to back seats in many small cars - you can put 3 passengers in there, but 3 adults won't be happy.

Nor will three rangy step-siblings.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#236
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad my Dad's not flying any longer. He was doing very long (multiple stops for re-fueling, flying on some form of breathing tank[0]) trips. He can go on for hours (and we let him) about stories of how he almost didn't make it home due to X or Y[1]. And he joked that every gauge/gadget on the dashboard that didn't come with the plane was there because "if I had it when X happened, X wouldn't have happened" (...or…

This sounds like my dad. He was a skillful pilot but enjoyed risk too much to be a “good” pilot. Died of lymphoma 30 years ago, so it never caught up with him. He flew a lot for a private pilot, over ten thousand hours,so had a few of those stories too. I flew with him as a child enough to have experienced some of them myself. I remember: - An inflight electrical fire, at night, over the Sierras. - A very tense IFR f…

  > He was a skillful pilot but enjoyed risk too much to be a "good" pilot.
To the extent that anyone who is willing to fly GA enjoys too much risk, that's my Dad. But I'd say he became a uniquely skilled small plane pilot[0]. For a solid 15 years he was flying multi-leg trips weekly (regardless of weather). I've joked, in the past, that I've never actually seen my father play a game on a computer -- the only thing he's ever done that resembles a game is "Flight Simulator" which he used to train (he was IFR and weather rated if I've got those terms right).

One thing that kept me comfortable being a passenger with my Dad had little to do with his externally exhibited confidence (which was absolute, and usually reassuring to others). It was the fact that I knew how deadly seriously he took what he was doing. I watched him pull out the clip-board and perform every step on the check-list. We've been stranded overnight and missed vacations entirely because my dad decided the trip would not be safe enough.

The strangely reassuring thing, though, was my Dad's opinion of stunt pilots/air shows[1]. They make him visibly, and vocally angry. My Dad isn't one to create controversy or even one to lecture much so I was surprised when we went to a hydroplane race and they had a biplane pilot doing stunts how completely pissed off he was about it. It was years ago and I don't recall his exact reasoning, and it might have even been something specific to the aircraft involved but his opinion was that the pilot was being reckless/irresponsible, that pilot skill, alone, cannot guarantee the safety of the pilot, aircraft or spectators because they're not designed to be used that way. In anger, I remember him nearly spitting something like "I have no respect for a pilot who puts peoples lives at risk for entertainment." I was a snotty teenager at that time so I probably rolled by eyes at him. I also know that he'd never do anything like that with his plane -- he gets seriously motion sick spinning around in a circle more than once or twice. ;)

I think the biggest fear we had with my Dad, though, was him falling asleep in the air. He worked long hours and my mom often had to poke him awake on long drives. I remember discovering his cure for this was a 1,000 ct container of Atomic Fire Balls (cinnamon hard candy that "tastes like burning").

[0] The "good" being in quotes, I assume, isn't implying that he's an unskilled pilot, just willing to accept risks that can only be reduced by pilot skill, which he had plenty of, but one cannot practice/become skilled in some situations without being put into them.

[1] I'm not referring to The Blue Angels/Airforce related shows; I don't know his opinion on that because we never went as a kid -- I suspect they might be similar but he has enormous admiration for military members so I wouldn't be surprised if he drew an exception. :)

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#237
post #211
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without reviewing your profile, I'm just going to guess you're a pilot or you know pilots -- just from this: > Or—to rewind the causal chain just a little further--pilot hubris, impatience and/or ignorance, which leads to weather being a factor in the first place. The choice to wing it and hope bad weather in the area will not affect you is the pilot’s. My Dad says "it's always pilot error" and backs them up with sta…

I think you would still feel guilty if passengers were hurt even if you were completely blameless. And part of your responsibility is to understand the risks. Risks that passengers may not fully understand. It is more like a risky sport like horse riding or skiing.

Completely agree. My thinking was simply: I know my Dad held himself to that standard. And the only way that I'd be willing to fly a plane is if I was willing to hold myself to that high of a standard, but as I'm not a pilot, I don't feel that I have enough knowledge to pass judgement on pilots (or others) who feel that there are circumstances to many crashes that should not be blamed on the pilot.

I think my Dad applied that to small plane/private pilots, rather than commercial, as well. While it might make someone with that absolutest thinking feel good to say "The pilot should have known someone's phone battery was nearing explosion before it blew a hole in the aircraft and required an emergency landing", I think my Dad would land somewhere in the territory of "If the pilot had a reasonable way of preventing the problem and didn't, it doesn't matter if it was negligence or lack of creative thinking". Me, I define that "reasonable way of preventing" as "it's in the checklist". I think my Dad would expect a whole lot more.

And even though I'd be more forgiving in my judgement of pilots, I can't fault him for his thinking. Every time something unexpected/dangerous happened in the air to him, he wouldn't get back up in the plane until he had figured out how to eliminate/greatly reduce the risk. When telling the story of what happened, he'd point out why it was his fault[1] and I don't doubt that he believed that when nobody was looking.

Over the years, he added a device to monitor the exhaust temp after the pipe blew threw the front of the aircraft and made the plane into a fireworks show of ignited exhaust. He added these strange (very inexpensive) rubber wire-like things to various parts of the wings after being struck by lightening which broke his radio, resulting in an interesting problem with getting clearance for landing[0]. He owned the plane with a partner who used it on the weekends, occasionally (they paid the company to use the plane), and they both had this same philosophy, so by the time he sold it, there were more gadgets attached to the dashboard than built into it. They had a weather radar gadget that was hypnotic to watch.

I can't think of a single incident my dad encountered in the air that would have fallen anywhere near the category of "skill-related/irresponsible failure". It was always a mechanical fault where the plane lacked any way of detecting/alerting the pilot and there was no other way for the pilot to confirm, before take-off, that the condition would not occur. And weather at Romeo airport can switch on a dime in the winter[1], which he managed with radar on his plane. Outside of the small explosion and an occasional hit from a bird, the plane was never damaged/crash landed or even had a non-runway emergency landing[2] despite losing the engine a few times and having many, many other problems.

Often these things just sat and monitored things that should never fail -- in the case of the exhaust heat, a separate fault caused the excess heat, which caused the (very small) explosion -- it should never have gotten that hot, but were it to get that hot, it didn't have to result in a fault or even an unscheduled landing. For the lightening, adding the $3 wires, apparently, eliminates the threat entirely. And despite all of the flying he did, I don't think he ever encountered the same kind of (or even related) problem more than once. That's about as perfect a score as you can get, in my opinion. :)

[0] I was told this as a kid and probably have most of it wrong, but he had these extremely bright flashlights as part of his emergency kit (strange, ABS plastic, four C-cells, not mag-lite, but these were damn bright); they were for Morse-code signalling (had both an on-off switch and a button that turned it on when depressed and off when released). He somehow had to notify the tower and receive a reply using the flashlight -- I imagined he flew the plane past the windows like in the movies, but it was probably less dramatic.

[1] He frequently ended up landing/having to get a ride from Oakland County International because of weather he wasn't willing to land in -- I don't know how the licensing works with that, but after he got his IFR but before he got the remaining (something related to a Loran-C and weather), he'd enter his flight plan and find out he wasn't allowed to fly due to weather. That stopped after he "leveled up his license a few times" over an expensive 3-year period.

[2] The closest he was to that would have been nearly having to do an emergency landing at Selfridge ANG. This was the early 90s, so who knows what this looks like today (and my recollection is lacking) -- IIRC, it would have been illegal for him to land there, but in an emergency, they'll accommodate. I remember him saying something about losing his license/having it suspended had he done it but I don't know the details.

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