The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world • Hacker News Board

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#231

Post by notacoward » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #217

mauvehaus wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the comment about the electronics, GP is likely referring to Kate Matrosova, who perished in positively appalling conditions, even by the very low standards of winter in the Whites. She died just off the Star Lake Trail, having ascended to the ridge via the Valley Way, which hits the ridge line at Madison Hut (4800', or much lower than the summit of Washington at 6288'). My partner and I have bailed off pret…

Yeah, that's the case and the book I was talking about. The actual accident, while obviously very tragic, wasn't especially interesting. Basically don't try to do a Presidential Traverse during the worst weather in about 20 years. It was actually a different situation from the more common cascading failures mode of accidents. She made a grave error by deciding to drive up to NH that weekend and a fatal one by continu…

BTW, when I said "you" before I didn't mean you @ghaff. I know you know these things; that was for the majority of HN folks whose experience is likely to be with taller but still less dangerous peaks. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#232

Post by watwut » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

ghostpepper wrote: post #129

spaetzleesser wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“not even go through the most basic safety checks prior to diving” From my experience the dive operators in tourist spots often don’t want you to touch anything. Kind of makes sense because most tourists like myself only have a very vague recollection of the procedure.

It's a vicious cycle though: tourists don't know how to dive safely so instead of making sure they know, we'll just set up their gear and throw them in the water. Tourists learn that this is normal, and become even less likely to know how their gear should be configured, which makes the next operator more confident in their decision to not let the tourist set up their own gear. The crew on a dive boat in a tropical d…

Isn't that exact same thing that is happening in anything touristy? And I fail to see why it is wrong? (Except drunk sleeep deprived guide).

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#233

Post by watwut » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #154

samdixon wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

It's not actually the people riding like lunatics that manage to kill themselves on motorcycles at high rates. It's the old guys, riding back from "biker nights" at the bar, in full branded gear to include the do-rag and t-shirt. Lots of single rider, single bike accident with substantial alcohol in the blood. I've ridden for many years, and I also fly small planes, so I'm quite aware of my higher-than-average risk p…

Are they? Cause motocycle incidents I knew of were all young overconfident guys. No alcohol was involved and it was during the day. The traffic rules were broken tho (speed and aggressive riding).

Anecdotal, but still.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#234

Post by jdeibele » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

samdixon wrote: post #120

ChrisBland wrote: post #96

I'm an avid diver; got certified as soon as I turned 12 years old and have had some great adventures and life lessons diving and continuing my training and education. After many many conversations and encounters on dive boats with others (some seasoned, most tourist / rec divers) - I believe that 90% of the industry sees diving akin to a roller coaster ride instead of Skydiving. The risks with scuba are there for you…

I have a similar theory about motorcycles. It's not batteries included, and some people ride like absolute madmen increasing the fatality rate.

I dropped my motorcycle endorsement when I had kids. There were too many death notices in the newspaper where a guy about my age was killed because a car "didn't see them" and turned right in front of them.

In most cases there wasn't an indication that they were speeding or drunk or on drugs, just that other people weren't paying attention. And maybe that the rider didn't allow for that.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#235

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #220

renewiltord wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, presumably if OP statement were true, recreational diving would involve large numbers of casualties. Casualties in recreational diving are somewhat rare, however, at 2 per million dives. Tourist dives are even safer since they do not perform advanced dives. Overall, the evidence does not support the view "If you really have only a vague recollection of basic safety checks you shouldn't be diving - seriously." M…

Of course, because things very rarely go south, especially to the point of someone dying. But still, spending half an hour reviewing some basic course material is not a huge thing to ask.

Yes, it is certainly acceptable to ask for that. Not arguing that.

Merely pointing out that there is no evidence for the assertion as stated.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#236

Post by Syonyk » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #227

hbrav wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small airfcraft fuel gauges are notoriously unreliable. If it's reading low, yes, be alarmed. But sometimes the float gets stuck, so if your estimate for how much fuel you should have burned puts your fuel lower, trust that. At least in the UK, getting a private pilot's licence did involve a couple of hours of simulated IFR. Not enough to do anything complex. But enough to turn 180, and be able to follow detailed con…

Huh. Wait, aircraft use float based fuel gauges still? I thought everything had gone electro-resistive since you'll get the same measurement regardless of orientation of the tank if you place your sensors right. I remember coming across that as a specific design challenge to overcome. Floats don't read the same when flying upside-down.

Most of the US General Aviation fleet is from the 1950s to 1980s. They still use floats.

Those who fly upside down on purpose tend to either not care about the fuel readings when upside down, or fly something modern enough. But I can't imagine an airshow performer is paying any attention to the fuel gauges. "I have a 15 minute routine, I have an hour of fuel onboard, and I'm surrounded by an airport, which is a good place for an emergency landing."

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#237

Post by netflixandkill » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #219

netflixandkill wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely that the target depth is down near 50m, which is well into the narcosis range for surface gas mixes. Particularly for inexperienced divers it is very easy to not realize what is happening and become too stupid to save yourself. Higher salinity may exacerbate that but not by too much.

> become too stupid to save yourself. You probably weren't too smart to begin with to go to 50m on compressed air, and without a seafloor at that.

I haven't been to the blue hole, but I can easily see nonchalant guides leading people to ignore any misgivings they had from what little training they may have had years ago.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#238

Post by lmilcin » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #171

lmilcin wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is to say diving is a sport that can be safe, but only assuming you are actively and honestly engaged in making it safe. I am not diving but I am sailing and for the most part sailing is a safe sport assuming you are prepped including mental preparation. If you are not, things can get downhill pretty fast. I consider diving one of the sports where you place yourself in a situation where you are dead by default…

Tangential, but driving never quite feels safe if you are pushing the car. At least not without inspecting the entire suspension every month or two. And that's ignoring anything internal, like your clutch fork giving out, or bending a rod, or your inner tie-rods disconnecting, or your brake cable tearing, or...

If you are pushing the car on a public road it means you have already failed at driving safely.

Driving safely != not cause an accident

Driving safely == not be in an accident

You can be the best driver in the world driving the best car in the world and it doesn't matter, because some idiot will not look in their mirror when changing lanes and suddenly you are in an accident.

To drive safely on a public road means to take care for your abilities and your car but most, most importantly, too give wide berth to other road users and to drive in a way that will minimize the accident if it happens.

Understand everybody makes mistakes. If you aim to drive safely you need to make it your responsibility to drive in a way that will allow yourself and others make mistakes and still not cause an accident. In other words, give margin for error.

Some examples:

-- try to minimize your time in somebody's blind spot.

-- observe traffic behind you, not just in front of you. I have on multiple occasions avoided a car hitting me from behind, twice at a difference of speed that looked like at least 100km/h. Being aware where the cars are gives you ability to act instinctively without hitting somebody.

-- try to maintain slow relative speeds with regards to other road users. For example, never drive fast around cars stuck in traffic.

-- always have a backup plan for every maneuver. For example, do not have fast closing speed to the car in front of you with a plan to change the lane just before you hit it. You need to maintain the ability to break in case the car in front of you suddenly slows down or in case you can't change the lane for whatever reason,

etc.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#239

Post by nkassis » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #151

ethbr0 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First class of dive course at CWRU: Older Navy diver instructor walks in "So I know each of you is coming into this class with different levels of experience. What we're going to do first is a short test on your proficiency for 20 minutes. It will be graded on completeness, not correctness. You are not expected to know all the answers. I'm just interested in gauging what you know. Be aware, there are a lot of questio…

We had a Chemistry teacher who tried a similar sort of thing on us when I was about 17. "OK class, today's lesson is going to be a dictation, get your books out and start taking this down" I can't remember the exact content but effectively he started off with some familiar organic chemistry and then veered off to stuff that was pretty obviously wrong. I'm proud to say that I'm the one that said "Eh ... that doesn't s…

I was not a great student but at one point in college I realized that I wasn't listening while taking notes. I was just mindlessly copying everything exactly as was written on the white board missing out on what my teachers said.

I stopped taking notes at this point and started paying attention instead. My grades improved. This might not work for everyone but something to try if you struggle retaining lecture content even as you take a bunch of notes.

Re: The Blue Hole in the Red Sea is the deadliest dive site in the world

#240

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #231

ghaff wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's the case and the book I was talking about. The actual accident, while obviously very tragic, wasn't especially interesting. Basically don't try to do a Presidential Traverse during the worst weather in about 20 years. It was actually a different situation from the more common cascading failures mode of accidents. She made a grave error by deciding to drive up to NH that weekend and a fatal one by continu…

BTW, when I said "you" before I didn't mean you @ghaff. I know you know these things; that was for the majority of HN folks whose experience is likely to be with taller but still less dangerous peaks. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

[deleted]