Live data from Hacker News

Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

digesttime.com

231–240 of 449 posts

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#231

What's more concerning to me is the cryptocurrency market as a whole. Perhaps there is an argument to Bitcoin being a kind of "digital gold" even if it is all but useless as a currency. But events like Dogecoin hitting a $50B market cap are very unsettling to me. I used to take part in "Dogecoin Socks for the Homeless" events. It was wonderful, everyone was trying to make something good out of what we all knew to be…

One way to look at crypto is that each coin is a digital version of a casino chip and you need these chips to gamble in the casino.

At the end of the day it’s just another phenomenon. Cryptocurrencies are many things to many people. You may lament for the person that looses a few hundred dollars but what about all the people who spent money on Pokémon Go just because they wanted to get involved in an activity with their friends.

There’s nothing wrong with getting hurt if you chose to ignore the risks and risked more than you were willing to lose.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#232
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly never experienced that. Its not like any crypto investor is running around converting others.

How many crypto investors have you been around? I’ve had many, many coworkers trying to convince me to buy Bitcoin over the last decade. This is across different companies, teams etc. And I have definitely witnessed the same thing online. I mean I wish I had listened because BTC was $50 a coin the first time someone tried to convince me to buy in.

It was $50 at the time precisely because people failed to convince others.

I see lots of people fall into the "If I only had done X back in year Y, then I would be rich." fallacy. No, you wouldn't be rich, because the information available at the time didn't justify such a decision. If that information were available, Bitcoin would have been worth $60k in 2009.

Right now nobody can tell you what will happen to Bitcoin, because all available information is already priced in. At this point it might go up but it might go down as well.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#233

What's more concerning to me is the cryptocurrency market as a whole. Perhaps there is an argument to Bitcoin being a kind of "digital gold" even if it is all but useless as a currency. But events like Dogecoin hitting a $50B market cap are very unsettling to me. I used to take part in "Dogecoin Socks for the Homeless" events. It was wonderful, everyone was trying to make something good out of what we all knew to be…

There is the fallacy that "real" markets are somehow super-efficient in moving peoples money exactly where they need to go to achieve tangible effect. This is just a myth, however in the crypto ecosystem it becomes entirely transparent. There's probably a lot more than $1T worth of money which is allocated randomly in regulated markets (i.e. gambling money). Part of this is moving to crypto because it's easier to handle.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s to say nothing of the Tether black swan to come. Black swan refer to unexpected events, right?

By black swan I mean that I'm convinced something bad will happen with Tether, but I don't know what. It's like Rumsfelds' "known unknowns" [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

It will be interesting to see what happens when those who exit at the top move into USDTether and try to cash out.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#235
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economically it's much more like gold than a ponzi scheme: Gold: Asset that goes up and down in price according to demand. No central body controlling it. Some utility as jewelry though we could get by without that. Massive dollar and environmental cost from mining the stuff. Ponzi scheme: Fraud where insiders take money from investors and use it to pay other investors. Collapses and the fraudsters run off or go to j…

Gold mining through the centuries has probably caused much more environmental pollution than bitcoin, and bitcoin ~~mining~~ minting is programmed to end. Bitcoin can be transferred around the world easily, The way gold achieves permanence is partially by being extremely hard to move around and store. Gold can be outcompeted too, aluminum used to be more expensive than gold.

Bitcoin mining is not programmed to end. It has two functions: issuing of new coins and safeguarding transactions. From these two only mining of new coins will eventually end but it still is likely to stay profitable for many decades. Safeguarding transactions, with reward from transaction fees, is programmed to go on indefinitely.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#236
I admire the idea of having a public currency with no ties to governments. That might create a better, more equal future. But bitcoin is failing that and it's what Taleb is talking about. I am not a working economist, but I am trained as one, and I would like to drop my two cents here.

I like the idea of having a public currency with no ties to governments because that makes our wealth safe from policies that have nothing to do with us, or our country. For example, I am Turkish and my wife is American. We are tied to the US and Turkey. Right now we earn some of our income in Turkish Liras, and some of it in US Dollars. The Turkish Lira(TRY) has been losing its value because of the incompetent financial management of the country. Basically our TRY wealth has lost half of its value in the past two years. Even though we don't feel that loss locally we feel it globally. The disturbing thing is we did nothing wrong to lose half of our wealth. A small group of people at the head of the government, with their horrendous decisions made us lose half of our wealth in just two years.

Same situation is going on with the global economy as well. We haven't felt the effects of Biden's new stimulus package yet, but as more money enter the system, all of our wealth will get a hit because of the inflation. America bets that they are going to create enough wealth with the 2b they are going to spend on infrastructure and will handle the effects of inflation. But what about rest of the world? We don't get anything, we will just lose our wealth.

When Bitcoin(BTC) was founded, the hope was to create a global currency with no ties with governments so we can preserve our wealth. But the speculative nature of Bitcoin makes it unsuitable for such a task. If BTC was stable enough, it would be preferable to gold to preserve wealth because it is easier to save and transfer. But you can't trust BTC. Anybody who understands finance will tell you it is the biggest bubble economy has ever seen. People with financial backgrounds don't trust BTC because it reminds them the previous economic bubbles that hurt global economy when the economy wasn't global. Since BTC became mainstream and started growing in an unprecedented way, I fear the effects of the burst because I know about the south sea bubble of 1720.

In BTC kind of bubbles everything looks wonderful to the public until a lot of wealth disappears in a couple of weeks. It took four weeks for the south sea bubble to burst and to lose 75% of its value. I believe when the bubble bursts and panic sets in BTC will lose most of its value in a shorter time. Moreover, in this burst there will be no government to mend the economic hurt people will suffer. That's what the economists are trying to warn people about.

When BTC people talk about BTC they usually talk from individual perspectives. They are earning a lot of money through BTC, so what's the problem with that? They say people who are against BTC doesn't get it, or are jealous because they are not earning money through BTC. Well, when the economists talk about BTC they talk about it from a global economic perspective. People can do what they deem worthy with their money, they can gamble, they can bet on BTC and try to earn more. Economists has no problem with that. Economists care about understanding the effects of the aggregate actions of people and economists don't want people to lose 75% of their wealth in a couple of weeks knowing the implications. They warn against bitcoin because when people who invest huge amounts of their money on BTC lose their wealth there will be no doors to knock to ask for help.

The BTC people almost always say that BTC is like gold. Well it's not. First, gold is tangible. You can have your gold and save it somewhere. Moreover, gold is one of the safest investments because over time gold price always increases. If you invest all of your wealth in gold, in the long term you will preserve your wealth. Can you say that with BTC? Of course not. You can't be sure that people will continue valuing BTC after the bust. You can't be sure that you will be able to sell your BTC after the bust. You can end up having some digits on some machines people are running for nostalgia. Moreover, gold is entangled in global economy and governments will interfere if the price of gold drops spectacularly. If the same happens to BTC, governments will shrug and tell that that's why people should use government backed currencies.

Another fallacy BTC people has is listening to people who are not financial experts. People might be successful experts in other areas, but economics is a different beast. I am good at marketing and sales, and people consider me as an expert in those areas. Would you accept my advice on programming a Linux kernel? That's happening with regards to BTC though. People who don't know about economics and finance, spends their days giving financial advice to people. Even people who are experts at finance would always tell that what they are telling are not financial advice whenever they talk, because it is just their opinion — and also for legal reasons. But those BTC zealots don't see a problem with suggesting people put their livelihoods and futures risk in an unstable, risky investment option.

We have to be reminded that, Newton, arguably one of the smartest human ever, and one of the most brilliant minds of his time with a great understanding of the financial events of his time, lost a huge part of his wealth when the bubble burst. You can read about it here: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsnr.2018.001...

Yet, I don't think BTC is a ponzi scheme. BTC is a risky financial instrument. NFT on the other hand is a beautiful ponzi scheme.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um , Taleb was a supporter of BTC a couple of years ago [0] and has owned BTC and is now selling it [1]. I think what he did falls in the category of "When facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" [0] https://news.bitcoin.com/black-swan-author-pulls-a-180-nassi... [1] https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1360276917992230919

Yes, let me be more specific: if you really are able to predict the future then you bet the house on something, you'll make out like a bandit. But if you also do something that many others do when the trend is plainly visible that doesn't count. Yes, I mined some bitcoin. But that's not the same as being able to predict a trend. Because when you can you're not just going to mine a couple of bitcoins or put a bit of m…

[deleted]

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#238
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold mining through the centuries has probably caused much more environmental pollution than bitcoin, and bitcoin ~~mining~~ minting is programmed to end. Bitcoin can be transferred around the world easily, The way gold achieves permanence is partially by being extremely hard to move around and store. Gold can be outcompeted too, aluminum used to be more expensive than gold.

Bitcoin mining is not programmed to end. It has two functions: issuing of new coins and safeguarding transactions. From these two only mining of new coins will eventually end but it still is likely to stay profitable for many decades. Safeguarding transactions, with reward from transaction fees, is programmed to go on indefinitely.

I second this comment. Glad to see someone knows the actual protocol rather than speculating.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hoped to see from ETH (like tokenization and trading of real-world assets) For ETH to trade real-world assets it needs everything else that the real world already provides: laws, courts, verification systems. Hell, it actually needs that even for digital systems.

Correct. Blockchain is only able to extend its guarantees to concepts wholly encapsulated by the blockchain. That's the reason only "currencies" have been successful thus far. The boundary between the blockchain and the real world is not a surmountable one - not with the guarantees of the blockchain anyways. And once you get rid of the guarantees it's just a slow, inefficient database. This is why, try as people migh…

This is a very good point! The first thing that crypto will succeed with is thus probably a store of value (Bitcoin seems to be going there) and the second is as a currency (we will see which one/ones will take this role). For contracts connected to things off the blockchain...that probably has no real solution yet.

Re: Nassim Taleb: Bitcoin failed as a currency and became a speculative ponzi scheme

#240

That "article" doesn't add anything beyond the fact that "this guy wrote a tweet and here's what it said". Why is such low quality filler getting traction on HN? Is it because anti-crypto posts push people's buttons? Every day there is something like this posted, and like clockwork the comments are full of the same arguments both on the pro and anti crypto sides. Am I an idiot for expecting better from HN?

HN is very anti crypto, they love the echo chamber of FUD that will be disproven
Post reply on HN