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Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#231

Post by hannob »

0-_-0 wrote: post #21
hannob wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like half of the bad publicity for AZ is their own fault. The blood clotting issue is not, but the bad studies and the poor communication totally are. Getting a warning letter from an US agency for publishing outdated data in a press release is quite a feat.

"The company says the agreed cut-off point for data was 17 February, by which time there had been 141 cases and efficacy was 79%. Within 48 hours, AstraZeneca had added more recent data. On a total of 190 cases, there was 76% efficacy (and as always 100% against severe illness and death). It’s not much of a difference." [0] [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/26/how-the-ast...

"It's not much of a difference" is a terrible excuse. This isn't about the percentage points they were off, this is about how such a thing looks in the public.

When you get a warning from a gov agency that you shared outdated data that just looks terrible. Just don't do anything in a press release that could even remotely look like you're trying to cheat with your data. It's a terrible idea in a situation like this.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#232

Post by henrikeh »

slver wrote: post #222
londons_explore wrote: post #53

This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. Which then raises the question, why did these professionals make a decision so different than the "obvious" opinion here?

> This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. The decision was made by politicians who only consider public reaction. Public reaction which is decidedly uninformed, and without all data in front of them. I wish you were right. What you say should have been the case. All over the world though, we see the true nature of h…

What do you have to back up that it is a decision made by “politicians”?

Sundhedsstyrelsen (the Danish Health Authority) makes that recommendation to not use it, not the government. Some parties are discussing giving a choice of AZ, but Sundhedsstyrelsen has then said that _that_ is a decision outside of their realm. But the recommendation is made outside of the government and parliament.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#233

Post by marto1 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #50

This is a fascinating example of cultural differences. I wonder if this provides some insight to which societies will be more or less likely to allow driverless vehicles, which suffer conceptually from the same type of trade off.

And one can probably put London's Sadiq Khan "part and parcel" attitude on the other side of the scale.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#234

Post by henrikeh »

mhb wrote: post #88
jsnell wrote: post #68

There's a very special kind of arrogance going on in all the comment threads about the Covid vaccine suspensions. These decisions are being made by professionals. They have been trained to do exactly this kind of decision. They have access to the best possible data on both the risks of the vaccine, the risks of Covid in their local context, and the impact these decisions have on the national vaccination schedules. Bu…

One obvious reason is that, in all this time, none of these professionals have explained their decision in terms of costs/benefits. So either they are not thinking in those terms or they don't think it is worth sharing the basis for their decisions. Let's see their models.

The official statement from the Danish Health Authority is quite thorough. Perhaps not a model, but there is a lot of nuance and they definitely consider the impact of their recommendation : https://www.sst.dk/-/media/Udgivelser/2021/Corona/Vaccinatio...

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#235

Post by caddemon »

yokaze wrote: post #205
caddemon wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also it's more like 1 in 100K for women with AZ. Still very unlikely so I don't understand the need for people to under state it by 10x.

From Science Table Covid-19 Advisory board to Ontario: https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/S... Which is the newest I could find on that matter. > VIPIT seems to be rare, occurring in anywhere from 1 in every 125,000 to 1 in 1 million people So, 1 in 100K seems to be the number to be on the safe side. But with rather rare events, it is probably hard to get an exact number there.

If I'm reading the source used by that link correctly though, the 1 million number comes from taking total number vaccinated as the denominator. My understanding was if you are a young woman, the estimate is closer to 1 in 100K. If you aren't it's probably even less likely than 1 in a million.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#236

Post by stinkytaco »

corty wrote: post #176
Svip wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this decision was made by the relevant authorities and not by politicians. If anything, Danish politicians are probably not keen on this decision, but have chosen to respect it. It should also be noted that Denmark has a relatively low infection rate, which is probably why politicians has decided not to interfere in the decision.

It should also be noted that public health officials are usually the lowest rungs of the ladder when it comes to ability in medicine. Running your own practice, running a research institute or chair or even just working in a hospital is far more interesting financially as well as for the challenge. Becoming a public servant as a doctor is a way out when your marks are just above passing or your motivation is insuffic…

I'd really like to see some data on this, because that's a giant assumption to make. There's many reasons an able person would choose to work in public health beyond that they are apparently too bad at medicine to do anything else.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#237

Post by makomk »

de_keyboard wrote: post #186
eloff wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be in (3) though you have to isolate your country right at the beginning before the action can be politically justified. I'm quite surprised that China was able to pull it off, because they're a major trade economy and must have millions of people coming and going. Of course it helps to have a government that can take any action without regard for rights or political consequences. This is impossible I think for a…

The lock-downs imposed in (2) countries were very effective and given a bit more time (and political will) they could have transitioned to strategy (3). Australia and China managed to do this.

The lockdowns imposed in countries that only used them to prevent the hospital system being overwhelmed were very effective on average, but that's not enough. In order to reach Covid Zero you need lockdowns to be very effective everywhere. Take for example the UK - there were apparently some areas where cases kept growing even during the strictest lockdowns, and that's enough to ensure you'll never reach zero cases.

All the countries where this worked seem to have the advantage of being geographically and geopolitically distant from Italy, which meant they could take action against their outbreaks at a relatively early stage before they got deeply embedded in society. (Early on, cases were more or less a gradient radiating out from Italy, probably because they had a major outbreak which went completely undetected as in literally reporting zero cases country-wide despite having an awful lot more than that.)

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#238

Post by kspacewalk2 »

marvin wrote: post #122
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a while lot more deaths than potential clot cases (not to mention clot deaths, which might be zero in a population that small).

Norway has ~10 deaths from Covid in the But only a small minority of the So it's a pretty safe assumption at this point that AZ is a bad option for younger age groups in countries with similar numbers, assuming that other vaccines will soon be available (they will)

Lies, damn lies, statistics, and statistics with low sample sizes.

In the UK they've had 13.5 million people under 60 vaccinated as of April 8, and a grand total of 79 cases and 19 deaths. The number of COVID deaths in people under 60 is more than 9000.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#240

Post by imwillofficial »

ceejayoz wrote: post #179
imwillofficial wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are literally 100% wrong. Less human contact, more stress, more suicide. We are social creatures and crave human contact. (Generally of course.)

> more suicide Except the actual statistics linked upthread say otherwise thus far.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/10/911117577/the-pandemic-has-re...
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