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Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#231

Post by jariel »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #51
esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

Yes, and that's a good thing. Balkanizing ID info between a gazillion government databases as we do in the US just creates inefficiency, and raises the thirst for more intensive surveillance to counter the inefficiency with which the data is used. (Consider the talk after 9/11 on the FBI and CIA not sharing info, and then we get the Patriot Act.)

Maybe the opposite though - having a 'single, semi-competent authority and source of control/failure/security' is probably not a good reality for security and resiliency.

Ironically, there's a >50% chance that the solution will entail 1) privately hosted platforms like AWS and 2) privately hosted support services and 3) privately written core modules (McKinsey business strategy, Accenture implemented etc.) and 4) at least some privately contracted IT people to manage the solution.

There's no reason to believe the gov. will make a more robust, scalable and secure solution that other entities.

A better approach might even be to mandate very specific identity protocols, and then allow citizens to chose their own identity provider among those that fit the regulatory requirements and oversight.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Post

It's owned by gov. and effectively independent. They could be an identity provider. They are already close to being able to do whatever need be done.

Having to create new government bureaucracies to do things is hard.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#232

Post by dijit »

Avamander wrote: post #215
dijit wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and Sweden. But these are largely outsourced to private companies iirc. There was a scandal in Estonia where they had to recall all the ID's because the main private key which signed them all got leaked (and that key was held by a private company)

> There was a scandal in Estonia where they had to recall all the ID's because the main private key which signed them all got leaked (and that key was held by a private company) No.

Helpful comment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/estonia-gemalto-idUSL8N1WD5J...

> Estonia's Police and Border Guard Board (PPA) said in a statement Gemalto had created private key codes for individual cards, leaving the government IDs vulnerable to external cyber attack, rather than embedding it on the card's chip as promised.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#233

Post by yawniek »

nickez wrote: post #164
null_object wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are , who shares their household and so on. Almost…

I guess I only shop with stores that use Kivra. BankID doesn't store any information, and I have no problem that the stores I'm a member in store my shipping history. I think you are overstating the scale of the surveillance. I don't think the different entities share data with each other. Edit: try live in a country like Switzerland once you have gotten use to all interaction being online. It's horrible. Edit2: actu…

i live in switzerland. the only cases i had to be physically present at an official place was when i "adopted" my own son (due to not being married) and when i funded companies. 4x 15min in the last 4 years.

i think the state of things is just already quite efficient without such an id. thus people are not willing to give that data away to a private monopoly. imo for good reason.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#234

Post by Guthur »

null_object wrote: post #145
nickez wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are , who shares their household and so on. Almost…

Democratic oversight?

Once these systems are in place they will be under the control of the great unelected, the civil servants, it will not be the subject of any political party policy again and so how exactly will you assert the voting based democratic control upon it?

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#235

Post by StanislavPetrov »

nickez wrote: post #70
esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

As a US citizen, being able to go to various physical places without being forced to patronize an opaque, unaccountable corporate behemoth owned by a conglomeration of banks that centrally tracks everything I do, every penny I spend, and what and where I spend it on is liberating.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#236

Post by jariel »

null_object wrote: post #145
nickez wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are , who shares their household and so on. Almost…

Neither of the points you made I think are existentially problematic, especially in light of the fact that Sweden is 1) ahead and 2) it works for them.

'Cost' is going to be a part of the equation, there is no avoiding that, but access can be regulated, as can oversight (i.e. transparency) with respect to transactions.

And: "merchant or service isn’t allowed to blame BankID for any problems such as downtime or any other technical problems"

Will Swiss private individuals or businesses be able to 'sue' the Swiss government for downtime? Like late trains? Invariably not. They'll just get the service they get and that's it.

Sweden provides a pragmatic demonstrable example of what can work, it shouldn't be dismissed.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#239

Post by dashdot »

malthaus wrote: post #7

Really proud of this result; the failsafe once again has done its job against heavy lobbying. There was so much misinformation around mostly due to lack of technical understanding (e.g. "it's a digital passport!") and the (yellow) press heavily pushed for a yes.

It was painfully obvious that heavy lobbying was involved... I was amazed how that problem somehow was never addressed by the opponents.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#240

Post by jeofken »

zorked wrote: post #219
wombatmobile wrote: post #55

Switzerland has an awesome electoral system [1]. Instead of being ruled by a president or a prime minister who can be polarising, divisive, or selective, Switzerland has an Executive Council. The 7 member Executive Council is composed of the top 7 candidates from each election. The chairperson of the executive council rotates each year, so that the top 4 vote winners each get a turn at being chairperson. This means t…

It has its advantages and disadvantages. It is also the political system that caused this: "In 1991 following a decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, Appenzell Innerrhoden (AI) became the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote on local issues." Notice how it was a court decision, not a result of the political process. I'd say 1991 is a bit too late to have full voting rights for women. https://en.w…

How can you so sure that your ideal is how they should live?

What I admire about the Swiss is how they live and let live - they may disagree with the neighbour, but let them be.

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