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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#231

Post by hutzlibu »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #224
oarsinsync wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Simultaneously offering a pay-to-play option that enables the user to bypass the timeout with money

This is the key difference. They mobile games don't want you to wait and come back tomorrow. They want you to pay to remove the blocks and just keep playing, today, tomorrow, every day.

But since they know not everyone is addicted, they want both.

Hardcore addicted people and people who are at least so on the hook to come back regularly.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#233

Post by teraku »

gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

I first learned of spaced-repetition learning from wanikani when I started learning japanese kanji and can only recommend to everyone!!!

Great approach, Kudos!

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#234

Post by LaGrange »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #224
oarsinsync wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Simultaneously offering a pay-to-play option that enables the user to bypass the timeout with money

This is the key difference. They mobile games don't want you to wait and come back tomorrow. They want you to pay to remove the blocks and just keep playing, today, tomorrow, every day.

This is not _entirely_ true, not that it changes anything significant about the predatory nature of f2p developers.

They absolutely want you to come back tomorrow. Apparently (inferring from what e.g. Mihoyo says and does about "total lifetime income") a whale that spends a bit less at once, but keeps doing this for years is far more valuable than one that blasts through the game and burns out immediately. You also need some dolphins and free-to-play people, both to fill out the multiplayer lobbies and appear less predatory.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#235

Post by asutekku »

taberiand wrote: post #229
asutekku wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if your product is a subscription then maximizing your engagement in a way that the users will stick longer and pay for longer is not a counterexample, it’s just adapting the engagement to fit your business model.

It could also be seen as adapting the business model to fit the process. Essentialy, the goal was to sell a product that guided users to learn in the most effective way possible. The learning model is spaced repetition, which requires users to use the product over a long period - therefore the best way to sell it is as a long term subscription. If the best way to learn was to cram as much as possible in as short a ti…

Absolutely, it makes sense for a product. But claiming it’s ”counter addicting” is just false.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#236

Post by ussy »

taberiand wrote: post #229
asutekku wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if your product is a subscription then maximizing your engagement in a way that the users will stick longer and pay for longer is not a counterexample, it’s just adapting the engagement to fit your business model.

It could also be seen as adapting the business model to fit the process. Essentialy, the goal was to sell a product that guided users to learn in the most effective way possible. The learning model is spaced repetition, which requires users to use the product over a long period - therefore the best way to sell it is as a long term subscription. If the best way to learn was to cram as much as possible in as short a ti…

I completely agree with your view on this.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#237

Post by LaGrange »

pixelbro wrote: post #171
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

Uh, it's interesting that you see the design of your product as a counterexample, because to me it looks exactly like what mobile games have been doing as a mechanism for maximizing engagement. You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Th…

> Uh, it's interesting that you see the design of your product as a counterexample, because to me it looks exactly like what mobile games have been doing as a mechanism for maximizing engagement.

Addiction is a habit that interferes with other areas of your life. Smoking isn't bad because you're having something to do with your hands during a break, it's bad because it's expensive and impacts your health. Playing games for 8 hours is fine if you have time for that, but bad if it stops you from keeping your bathroom clean.

So yeah, intentional habit forming is using the same techniques as addiction building. The difference is, essentially, in the informed consent involved in the former.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#238

Post by Demigod33 »

pedalpete wrote: post #144
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

Unrelated to original thread - I find it interesting the way you approach this comment. You mention pricing almost as if you're apologizing. Your competitors, even if they are binge-focused, don't apologize for charging customers. They would never have a an advert that says "we've got this great course, but before you go check it out, I'll warn you, it costs money". I like your thinking of non-binge learning, and thi…

Do you mean the book by Kevin Maney, Al Ramadan et al.?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#239

Post by cesarvarela »

gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

This reminds me of the drip feed algorithm used by Tinder.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#240

Post by pixelbro »

cercatrova wrote: post #190
pixelbro wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, it's interesting that you see the design of your product as a counterexample, because to me it looks exactly like what mobile games have been doing as a mechanism for maximizing engagement. You want to stop them from playing through too much of the game's content and burning themselves out on it. So you lock them out with a timer, forcing them to come back later. Then you reward them for coming back every day. Th…

Habits can be good or bad. In this case, one would want the user to be rewarded for coming back every day to learn programming. Habit acclimation is a neutral process, just because the parent uses the same tactics as those who use them for building bad habits does not mean that those processes are bad in and of themselves.

Of course! I'm not ascribing any moral weight to it, just pointing out the similarity in tactics. Engagement can be a good thing if you're using it to improve someone's life rather than simply trying to extract as much time and money from them as possible.
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