Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. You are attacking the wrong target. It's the government that's broken. This kind of outrage can happen just as easily with pencil and paper. The root cause is the lack of accountability and desire to make the government functio…
But they can be undone with pencil and paper too. The footgun of automation here can only be undone with either a really good patch (git commit -m 'finally finally works for real this time') or a lot of pencil and paper work that's slower than the processes that caused the problem. I'll note that this isn't the first time that people have said "well its the algorithm" when they were responsible. The example that spri…
Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
231–240 of 434 posts
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
Software that infringes on the public (even if they are criminals) as opposed to software that people can opt to use or not, needs to have a very serious question asked at design time: If the software produces an incorrect result, what mechanism exists to override it/audit it/provide damages etc. The fact people are not asking that is worrying. I understand why the system was not designed to do something that happene…
As someone with a civil engineering background: This right here is the difference between conventional engineering disciplines where designs require a Stamp from an Engineer of Record who takes on personal responsibility in the event of design failures vs. the current discipline of software engineering. There's a big difference between a software developer and a software engineer, and I think that difference should b…
That does happen with software a lot, frequently flying under the title of Compensating User Entity Controls (CUECs) or User Control Considerations (UCC). Basically the “here it is, don’t feed it after midnight and don’t let it get wet, and good luck” riders. Sounds like these problems happened way earlier in the lifecycle though - either the requirements were missed or the testing was thorough enough.
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#233Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
The US has a specific exemption to the prohibition of slavery for incarcerated individuals in our constitution. I think there are many powerful people in our country with a vested interest in keeping the prison-slave-labor pipeline flowing.
The exemption allows an individual to be sentenced to slavery , but that can only happen if the federal or state laws also allow that sentence. Is there any jurisdiction whose laws allow a sentence of slavery? Has anyone actually been sentenced to slavery in the last 100 years or so? I would imagine that if some jurisdiction somehow did sentence someone to slavery, the states would quickly amend the constitution to m…
To my knowledge, nobody has been sentenced to slavery in a long, long time. On the other hand, the US has managed to lock up 2% of its population and force them to labor in circumstances and rates that would be illegal for free citizens in order to guarantee the profit of private corporations. That this system of arbitrary law enforcement[0] disproportionately hits the same sub-group that used to be literally enslaved really should send your eyebrows through the ceiling when the defense is that it's not literally slavery.
Of course, US prisoners are not chattel slaves; they're not literally property, and neither are their children. On the other hand the rate of recidivism in the US, and the strong correlation of outcomes between parent to child makes this kind of a cruel joke. If your father having been in prison makes you overwhelmingly likely to end up in prison yourself for similar reasons, it's hard to put on a straight face and pretend that nothing is wrong.
I'd argue that this structure represents something akin to stochastic terrorism, but for forced labor. Stochastic terrorism is a case where someone or some group attempts to radicalize and encourage terrorism from afar. Done correctly it produces a statistical probability of terror attacks without anyone (even the group) being able to predict the exact time and place. These types of systems are very hard to disrupt, which is why groups like ISIS leaned on them in order to attack the west, which had gotten very good at stopping more organized attacks.
Similarly, I'd argue that the US system represents a type of stochastic slavery. It's impossible to precisely predict who will or will not end up in the system providing free labor (unlike chattel slavery, where it's very easy to predict), but one can easily calculate the aggregate chance of someone ending up in prison. It's not literally slavery, but with the recidivism rate so high it ends up functioning like it for most people caught up in it. Oh, and it's run for a profit too, which is deeply concerning.
0 - Drug laws remain key to why America has so many people locked up, and drug law enforcement is incredibly arbitrary, both in terms of which drugs get which sentences, and who gets the hammer dropped on them when they get caught.
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#235So the prison administration know there are people being held that shouldn't be held, but they are still keeping them behind bars.
This is not a software problem.
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…
At what point do you feel the developers - the ones who actually wrote the code - should be held legally responsible for that code's execution?
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I have to say that sounds exactly how this kind of software should be built. You see this in every topic. Every "muh pride in muh trade" person says something like this about the relevant trade but the fact of the matter is that the world runs on off-brand duct tape, harbor freight tools, walmart jeans, economy tires, and all sorts of other "value" solutions and the race to the bottom is what has given us much of th…
We don't say "perfection is impossible" when it comes to bridges collapsing. We understand that yes, on rare occasion a bridge WILL collapse, but we go and find the people responsible, and we still hold them accountable. This is a level of accountability that basically every other field of engineering is held to, and they've all risen to the challenge and left the "off-brand duct tape" behind. Even within programming…
If software developers are held responsible for the software then expect costs to multiply. Nobody would directly sell you software either - they'd sell you a hardware and software bundle that you must use exactly as the developers say. If you input a value that's out of bounds then that's on you. The software also won't get updates and it will run on 20 year old hardware. That's not too dissimilar to what we have in aerospace, right? And developers aren't even held responsible there! It's the companies, so expect it to be worse than even that.
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. You are attacking the wrong target. It's the government that's broken. This kind of outrage can happen just as easily with pencil and paper. The root cause is the lack of accountability and desire to make the government functio…
Except software allows a scale and efficiency that is impossible with pencil and paper while also creating an ideal scapegoat. Software is being used to avoid accountability at a scale much greater than what was possible with manual process.
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#239This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…
The following is very illuminating: > Instead of fixing the bug, department sources said employees are attempting to identify qualifying inmates manually... But sources say the department isn’t even scratching the surface of the entire number of eligible inmates. “The only prisoners that are getting into programming are the squeaky wheels,” a source said, “the ones who already know they qualify or people who have fam…
Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
Software is just a tool, it can be used to build good or bad things. It would be hard to see this in e.g. Scandinavian countries, where incarceration is seen as rehabilitative rather than punitive. In the US, racial discrimination, free market extremism along with "tough on crime" laws have created unimaginably cruel systems; together with private prisons, the goal has been on cutting costs rather than rehabilitating…
Is rehabilitation not the main goal in the USA? We call the places correctional facilities, and do other things that are ostensibly there to correct behavior and prevent recidivism. In fact, it seems like most of the things that prevent people from being successful are unintended side effects. Here's a thought: Why do we permit private companies to not hire ex-cons? Why do you just get to decide that you don't want t…
I don't really think any justice system is actually putting rehabilitation first. Otherwise, you'd be sentenced to "until you get rehabilitated or no more than X years."