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Always Bet on Text (2014)

graydon2.dreamwidth.org

231–240 of 349 posts

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#231

It really depends on what you define as text. Does it involve special notations such as math? Can it involve diagrams? If all you mean is prose, as writing sentences in whatever native language you speak, then I must respectfully disagree with the OP. Yes, text is marvelous. I'm an author of multiple books and have a passion for the written word, but there are things for which there are better ways to convey informat…

Even if you include things like circuit diagrams as text I don't agree that you should always bet on text. Personally I think you should always pick text as a default, unless you have good reasons to chose something else and use text to elaborate on it.

Couple of examples:

- For a musician to convey a musical idea, the arguably most straight forward and effective way to do so is just to play/sing/record it. Any other means like musical notation, textual description, midi etc. require a lot of additional knowledge and work on both ends of the communication and come with their own drawbacks.

- The Wikipedia text about human rights in the article is a great example when written text is better than an image. But say I want to describe what the grand canyon looks like. Personally, I don't have the writing skills to really do it justice. On the other hand my phone has a camera so I can snap a couple of pictures that will get the other person a much better idea of how it is. In this case text is useful for additional information not visible in the image, like why the color of the rocks is how they are.

- If I'm living together with someone and want to discuss how to pain the walls, a pantone color swatch is going to be much more useful than textual description of the colors. Text is useful here after the decision to pass on the color code to the contractor.

- I reckon for most people it easier to follow instructions on how to cut up a chicken when they are in form of a video or image slide show over just written words.

I don't think the problem is whether text is better or not, but that often the choice of medium is not based on what makes most sense for the use case, but other considerations like what will yield better conversion numbers.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing of this is actually true, period. Could you kindly verify that by repeating your post using something other than what amounts to a text file? If not maybe that's an even truer seal of irony.

> Could you kindly verify that by repeating your post using something other than what amounts to a text file? Could you kindly present me your comment without using all these inferior non-text technologies involved on my side to read it off my screen? That's the irony, if anything.

What does the display (or TTS) technology used to read it matter in this discussion?

Obviously you need ways to display text in the physical world, be it a screen or a piece of handwritten paper. It's still text.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re:Try to express that logo in text "Twitter" carries the same weight

Tell me in 723 characters or less what this "Twitter" looks like so I can make an exact copy of it. Text is ambiguous.

HN doesn't render ASCII or ANSI art correctly however both methods can serve as representation of Twitter in text and graphic less then
     ,~
    ('v)__
   (/ (``/
    \__>' hjw
     ^^
   Twitter
Bird kindly borrowed from: https://www.asciiart.eu/animals/birds-land

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> svg is text. If SVG counts as text, then text is just binary. The encoding is not important, the final result (an image you see on a screen, in the case of SVG) is. Besides, try reading out the actual SVG source text to someone and see if they can tell you what the image you are describing is. I dunno about you, but I find thinking in terms of paths and strokes to be rather meaningless. Or another example, do you c…

SVG is definitely human-readable. It's just drawing instructions, draw a line from there to there, then another one from there to there, etc. I can read it to someone over the phone with a pen and graph paper, and he can draw it exactly like it should be represented, with zero loss of quality. It's no different than someone looking at list of cash transactions. Numbers are text too. Of course, to extract meaning from…

> SVG is definitely human-readable.

No. A path tag with a 500-600 element `d` attribute is not human readable. It is not human understandable or parsable until it's converted into a visual format.

Ask a blind person whether they think SVG charts are accessible on their own without any additional markup or alternate explanations or controls. Ask them if they can read SVG line charts by stepping through the path property. Figuring out how to communicate complicated graphs/charts with lots of data without relying on any visual medium is a complicated problem that we are still trying to solve.

> You could just say "I'm sending you the stylised image of a blue bird, with the instructions on how to draw it using the SVG text standard". Or just, more clearly even, the following string of characters: "twitter_logo.svg"

By that logic, a PNG is also text, because I can do the same thing. All images can have alt tags. Even Javascript Canvas can have fallback text for when it doesn't render. My Twitter png can be transmitted as "twitter_logo.png".

What do people mean when they say text is preferable if not that the textual representation is more useful than the image representation? If you didn't feel like the SVG format was adding any useful information in its rendered form, you wouldn't waste the time sending information to render it. You would just send the alt text.

> I can read it to someone over the phone with a pen and graph paper, and he can draw it exactly like it should be represented, with zero loss of quality

Right, and when that person draws it, they will have converted it from a textual format into a visual one. I can send you the individual pixels of a small raster image over the wire in a textual format and you can sit down on a piece of grid paper and ink in squares until you come up with the final image. At which point you will no longer be looking at a piece of text.

To argue that the fact that we can encode a format over a UTF-8 stream or physically replicate your computer's drawing algorithm makes a thing text seems to me to be a misreading of the original article's point. The original article is not complimentary of Twitter's SVG, it explicitly brings it up as an example of a non-text medium.

If you expand the definition of text to include basically any storeable information that can be theoretically encoded into UTF-8, then sure, I would agree that text in that system is tremendously powerful. But that's not a useful category to talk about, it's so broad that it becomes meaningless.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plain text is simple, elegant and has open-standards - it traces its origins back to telegraph codes that we have been using for hundreds of years - and still forms the basis of most of the internet now. So I am inclined to agree with the statement "text is the most powerful, useful, effective communication technology ever, period".

By that same argument/logic you might as well argue cave paintings are superior over text. It traces back probably over 50000 years and is still universal today and doesn't even require understanding of a specific language - and it still forms the basis of most of society now. (art, painting, photographs, graffiti, ...)

Your reply is in text. Would you care to link a set of paintings to express your argument instead?

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re:Try to express that logo in text "Twitter" carries the same weight

Tell me in 723 characters or less what this "Twitter" looks like so I can make an exact copy of it. Text is ambiguous.

Images are the best way to describe images. Many ideas are better expressed in text than anything else we have.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#239

Apples and oranges. The post states that the used Twitter logo PNG is 4000 bytes, while it's only 723. Try to express that logo in text, English language and in all its details with 723 characters, so you are able to reproduce a pixel perfect representation. Not even possible with 4000 characters anyway. Don't bother. Text will be ambiguous, unless you describe every single detail. If the target is to communicate "Tw…

[deleted]

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you kindly verify that by repeating your post using something other than what amounts to a text file? Could you kindly present me your comment without using all these inferior non-text technologies involved on my side to read it off my screen? That's the irony, if anything.

What does the display (or TTS) technology used to read it matter in this discussion? Obviously you need ways to display text in the physical world, be it a screen or a piece of handwritten paper. It's still text.

> What does the display (or TTS) technology used to read it matter in this discussion?

> Obviously you need ways to display text in the physical world, be it a screen or a piece of handwritten paper. It's still text.

And what about transfer? People keep claiming text is superior for transferring information, yet the majority my network stack or anything involved with the transport isn't text based.

The premise of the whole "text is the best technology" argument is based on cherry picking and strawman arguments anyway.

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