Live data from Hacker News

The high price of mistrust

fs.blog

231–240 of 285 posts

Re: The high price of mistrust

#231
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What actually happened was instead the government in most places have figured that the customers liked the illegal service so much, that if they do fight it, they will actually reduce, instead of increasing their legitimacy. I don't think it's that, unless you think the dissatisfaction expressed by officials is just posturing. I believe that it's just because bureaucracy moves slowly - and the core of Uber's strate…

> I don't think it's that, unless you think the dissatisfaction expressed by officials is just posturing. I believe that it's just because bureaucracy moves slowly - and the core of Uber's strategy was to corner the market and gain sympathy of the riders before local regulators could gear up - at which point they'd be fighting their own citizen. Basically, pitting people against their local governments. And what's th…

> If one can improve the lives of the people and make them happier by subverting the law, this is really damning for the government.

People run to below-costs services like cats to catnip. You can make anyone happy by selling them $10 bills for $1. The problem is, what happens when all the competitors are gone, and the reason for below-cost offering ends?

> More importantly, even if you grant the government the authority to take away people's freedom to do things the government considers too risky, purely out of paternalism, the fact is that the government had no reason whatsoever to believe that Uber cabs are less safe

Of course they had, and we grant such authorities all the time. There's a special type of insurance covering commercial transport of people, it's illegal to engage in commercial transport of people without such insurance (and for good reason, if accident happens, then both the driver and the passengers are screwed); the problem, in Uber's case, was too little enforcement, and Uber shielding itself behind "independent contractor" veil and pretending they didn't encourage it.

> the reason traditional taxi companies are unhappy about Uber breaking the laws precisely because the laws help protect their business and extract rent at the expense of the consumers

These laws didn't came out of the blue and weren't just instances of random regulatory capture. The laws creating barriers to entry and (in some places) granting taxi companies limited monopoly are the flip side of the legal requirements that come with the taxi service being treated as a part of public transport infrastructure. Things like the legal requirement for taking passengers in unprofitable locations, or having cars in the fleet adapted for the needs of people with limited mobility. Things Uber did not do, because it didn't have to (and couldn't, really, with their "just a platform" business setup). Instead, Uber offered subsidized rides for able-bodied people in city centres, and no rides at all for elderly or disabled or people living further away.

> Weren't you just a moment ago saying that the drivers were "underpaid"? If it ain't the drivers who are subsidized, then who is, exactly?

The rides were. The prices you paid for a ride were sometimes less than the driver would get from Uber, but Uber wasn't going to pay the drivers more than they needed to (at least not until some follow-up competition came).

> If it's all VC subsidies, they'll run out

That's why Uber is betting so hard on self-driving. They've been operating on a loss for many years now, and they know they can't sustain it.

> and in the meantime, the customers keep benefitting from subsidized rides.

The meantime always ends, eventually. Leaving behind a thoroughly destroyed market. C.f. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/

Re: The high price of mistrust

#232
Anyone knows of research that compares trust across companies? (Perhaps it's more interesting to look at trust separately for between-peers, and employee-manager; as well as at different seniority levels; but I suppose it would be too hard to collect such detailed data.)

Across countries? (Similarly, some breakdown would be quite interesting.)

Re: The high price of mistrust

#233

Anyone knows of research that compares trust across companies? (Perhaps it's more interesting to look at trust separately for between-peers, and employee-manager; as well as at different seniority levels; but I suppose it would be too hard to collect such detailed data.) Across countries? (Similarly, some breakdown would be quite interesting.)

> compares trust across companies

Did you mean different companies trusting each other, and thus being "hyper productive" if getting things done together? In a way that lasts also after the individuals (executives, managers, people at the companies) who initially created that high trust, have left?

It sounded more as if you had in mind to compare the "trust level" inside different companies, with each other? Maybe plotted against profitability?

In any case, sounds like interesting topics to me.

> Across countries

Did you mean how much people in different countries, trust others in the same country as themselves?

Or if nearby countries can "lift each other up" by people and politicians there, trusting the people & politicians in the other nearby countries

Re: The high price of mistrust

#234
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a short story, but maybe you're remembering a bit from "Snow Crash"? > Y.T's mom pulls up the new memo, checks the time, and starts reading it. The estimated reading time is 15.62 minutes... Y.T.'s mom decides to spend between fourteen and fifteen minutes reading the memo. It's better for younger workers to spend too long, to show they're careful, not cocky. It's better for older workers to go a little fast,…

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of. I didn't know it was part of a book, I think I originally read this paragraph on someone's blog. Thanks for sharing the original source!

It'll get harder when the computers add eye tracking and one has to fake looking at the text too :)

Re: The high price of mistrust

#235
post #17

The framing of this piece itself is a symptom of the problem. Everything, including our social relationships apparently have to be "capital" that make us "productive." This amoral, economistic view of human life is what got us into this mess in the first place. Why would people trust each other in a system that essentially rewards sociopathy, avarice, greed, and deception? It's telling that they can't provide a bette…

I wonder if you're unfairly conflating the term "social capital" with the general caustic meanness of economic "capitalism". Putnam is a political scientist, not an economist.

I honestly think that most of the relentless unpleasantness of capitalism doesn't come from capital itself, it comes from competition and conflict over scarce resources. It's this conflict between different pools of capital which makes capitalism relentless and exhausting, and the fact that such conflicts are often won by the side which starts with more for unrelated reasons which makes capitalism unfair and often of very questionable morality. I think it's relevant to the article to point out that I this model, all of these conflicts are essentially low trust environments since the actors have by definition opposing goals.

But "social capital" doesn't have to be about conflict. Let's say I am fortunate enough to have a friendly relationship with my next door neighbors. To give a cliched example, let's say I want to bake a cake and am running low on sugar. Being able to ask them allows me to finish my task without stopping everything to run to the store. Likewise, if they need to leave town for an emergency, they can call me to check on their place or walk their dog.

These examples don't involve any conflict, so it's not clear who's losing out on any of them*? The social capital of our friendship definitely made us more productive, but who wouldn't want that? This isn't about pleasing some kind of corporate manager and churning out more widgets, it's just about personal quality of life, so what's left for there to be a problem with the idea of social capital?

* I suppose if we're being extreme then we could say that the sugar providers and grocery store lost in the first exchange by my ability to avoid buying another bag. I'm not sure this is entirely true, though, since I'm very likely to buy more sugar on my next trip anyhow. They've lost out on the urgency perhaps, but as a side note I believe that urgency is the core of the other worst aspects and cruelty of commercial capitalism; urgency sometimes forces incredibly wasteful behavior in the name of "winning the race" against a competitor or many other kinds of artificial deadlines, etc. (Anyhow I digress...)

Re: The high price of mistrust

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? I don't believe we have more inequality now than 100 years ago, or anything before that.

Look back 50 years, not 100 years. We're facing a situation where the standard of living is dropping for the young generation. - huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers - productivity wage-gap: http://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-product... - savings gap between millenials and previous generations: https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-saving-habits…

> Look back 50 years, not 100 years.

This observation is often trotted out, but I'm not sure it's fair. 50 years ago was no picnic, either. We were mired in the Cold War (Vietnam, no less). Nixon was in the White House. There was tons of social unrest (Nixon wrote in his memoirs about the thousands of bomb threats and attempted bombings). Civil rights / racial tensions were extremely high (MLK was assassinated in '68). The 70's were an absolutely terrible economic decade - oil shock and stagflation, anyone?

> huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers

I recall watching a presentation a few years back on this, but sadly I can't find the link. This appears to be a follow-up on the research, though. (From the Brookings Institute -https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

In 1970, women entered the workforce, so you would have expected productivity to double, so GDP would have doubled, and thusly everyone's standard of living, right?

Instead what happened is all that extra capital drove up costs in housing and healthcare. Credit cards were introduced and the savings rate plummetted. Instead of having tons of extra money, everyone actually wound up in debt instead. (Please note: I'm not blaming women entering the workforce for this phenomenon; it was totally our surrounding economic system)

My high level point is that I think young people back then had a lot of reason to feel precarious and not trust in their institutions to act in their interests. We probably suffered a lot for it then, but we did eventually build our way out of it, for at least a short while, even if it feels like we're essentially further down the economic path now.

Edit: cleaned up typo and link, sorry

Re: The high price of mistrust

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted, but you hit the nail on the head. I feel like for people of my vintage (born in the early 80s) the whole war on terror was extremely caustic to my generational cohort. It was a weird environment where every trusted institution in society lined-up in support of both wars, and then actively worked to sideline any debate and discussion. The Dixie Chicks got infamously cancelled for saying somethi…

" Young people might not remember this, but finance used to be the industry you would track into if you were a high achieving member of the intelligentsia. The industry was viewed as being staffed to the gills with the best-and-brightest and was afforded anodyne coverage from the establishment media. " Speaking as someone who was born before the 80s, my perception is that you have misread this situation. The rise of…

Could it have been the other way around, where the rise of finance industries caused the "greed is good" 80s?

I've assume that Nixon taking the U.S. off the gold standard precipitated the growth in the finance industry, the government needs banks to grow money supply and debt, right?

"Greed is good" may have just been an add campaign designed to justify what was already happening, a frenzy of finance, consumerism, and debt that has not stopped yet.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glenn Greenwald's personal issues with (1) what he considers the appropriate relationship between journalism and "objectivity" and (2) his ability to maintain that relationship if he votes are not my problem. There are dozens/hundreds/thousands of journalists around the world who are perfectly capable of reporting in a way that is useful, insightful, factual, while still voting in elections. I don't want journalists…

It's helpful to distinguish between journalists and historians. Historians have the time and context to make judgments and draw conclusions. Journalists are reporting on things that happened today , and the deadline is in an hour. The story may still be happening by the time the piece is published. You don't have all the information, so any opinion will inherently be misinformed. Report the facts and leave the opinio…

>Report the facts and leave the opinion to someone else.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean that journalists (or anyone else, as that's important in many non-journalistic contexts) don't or shouldn't have opinions.

Rather the goal should be to report the facts without bias.

That may sound like hair-splitting, but it isn't. We're humans and we all have opinions, biases and ideas of our own.

But when it comes to reporting news or just facts/results (e.g., revenue figures, safety/efficacy testing results, etc.) the idea is to consciously set aside those biases.

Some do that better than others, which prsents an arbitrage opportunity that allows those with no desire or intention to report honestly/factually to insert blatantly false and/or misleading information.

Quality reporting of news and fact doesn't require a lack of opinion or bias about the subject at hand. Rather it requires the desire, willingness and ability to set aside those things in support of trustworthy reporting.

There are many reasons why that arbitrage opportunity exists, but the existence of opinions on the part of those reporting isn't a major contributor, IMHO.

As the old saw goes, "opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one."

Re: The high price of mistrust

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the foundations of trust. I assume you're referring to the neocons who lied us into the war in Iraq (and keep us there to this day), the Wall Street bankers & executives who created the 2008 financial crisis and the politicians who bailed them out at the people's expense, the military/intelligence and tech industry figures who s…

You're being downvoted, but you hit the nail on the head. I feel like for people of my vintage (born in the early 80s) the whole war on terror was extremely caustic to my generational cohort. It was a weird environment where every trusted institution in society lined-up in support of both wars, and then actively worked to sideline any debate and discussion. The Dixie Chicks got infamously cancelled for saying somethi…

Finance was slimy as hell long before 2008.

People like to think they live in unique times, but they don’t.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted, but you hit the nail on the head. I feel like for people of my vintage (born in the early 80s) the whole war on terror was extremely caustic to my generational cohort. It was a weird environment where every trusted institution in society lined-up in support of both wars, and then actively worked to sideline any debate and discussion. The Dixie Chicks got infamously cancelled for saying somethi…

>there's basically "meritocratic" caste system in this country: if you go to the right school, get into the right industry, and make enough money you are [ ... ] This is a description of the absolute opposite of what "meritocratic" means.

It's in air quotes for a reason - we label it meritocracy but there are clearly structural issues in place that preventing our society from being such a thing.
Post reply on HN