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Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

theguardian.com

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Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#231

Post by rconti »

bad_alloc wrote: post #15

I just got a Renault Zoe 2020 last December and it's been great. Commuting to work and going to the shops is just as comfortable as with a combustion engine. No gas station visits and even with the high cost of electricity in Germany (0,3€/kWh) it's still worth it. Only when driving longer distances (>250km) you need to plan ahead for charging and trips take longer (1-3 hours).

I'd go with "more comfortable" when you're talking about a car that can heat the cabin almost instantly, rather than waiting for the combustion engine to heat the coolant enough to trip the bi-metallic thermostat, thereby routing tepid coolant into the heater core in the cabin, and then blowing a fan over it. :)

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#232

Post by rconti »

mrtnmcc wrote: post #16

Will be watching for the success of Rivian and Cybertruck to see if the rural market can accept electric.. but can't think of any good reason why not, other than pride and prejudice. (FD, I grew up in the country).

Probably all you have to do is look at how long it took before Tundras were everywhere as work trucks. 15 years?

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#233

Post by imtringued »

tyho wrote: post #10
dm319 wrote: post #3

The UK plan for no ICE vehicles to be sold by 2030 is fairly ambitious. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the roads, but I think some regular customers will be disappointed by how poor the infrastructure is. Not only that electric chargers aren't as prevalent as they need to be, but the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city), but an even bigger problem is the h…

The 2030 date will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So long as "everybody" truly believes the Governments threat to effectively ban ICE sales after 2030, then clear economic opportunities to service the future demand for electric cars and charging infrastructure become apparent. This sidesteps the issues with network effects. You don't have to worry about building a charging network before electric cars become widespre…

The government has no skin in the game. If manufacturers can't keep up with demand then the promise is meaningless.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#234

Post by rconti »

dd_roger wrote: post #89

The major problems with EV that will keep me from buying one in the foreseeable future are: * Low range, combined with a lackluster charging infrastructure. I think from my list this is the closest issue to being resolved, if I could consistantly get 800km range (in real world usage, not "800km in the brochure but actually 400km in real life") it would be fine because (1) with such a long range the risk of having to…

You already have a hard time paying for gasoline with cash, particularly after-hours.

A "dumb" EV you charge at home could, in theory, leave fewer breadcrumbs than a petrol car you fill up with a credit card.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#235

Post by cptskippy »

turtlebits wrote: post #184
imglorp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the road for long trips, yes absolutely. But the EV usecase also includes low and medium speed charging at home overnight, and while at your destination (say a retailer) which you can't do with your ICE car. So overlapping but not identical comparison.

You cannot get any meaningful charge at at retailer (assuming L2) unless you're there for over an hour, and that only nets you ~20-22 miles.

> over an hour, and that only nets you ~20-22 miles.

Most modern EVs can do 24-25 miles/hour on L2.

How is that not meaningful?

The average trip to the grocery store is 41 minutes [1] so that's 15 miles of charge which would negate most or all of the range lost traveling to the store.

[1] https://www.creditdonkey.com/grocery-shopping-statistics.htm...

Stop assuming that anyone plugging their EV into charge is on empty and NEEDS to charge. That's an ICE vehicle use pattern that doesn't apply, people wait until their empty when driving an ICE because they have to make a special trip. With an EV and charging everywhere, you can charge whenever you want.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#236

Post by Laarlf »

zaroth wrote: post #120
bad_alloc wrote: post #15

I just got a Renault Zoe 2020 last December and it's been great. Commuting to work and going to the shops is just as comfortable as with a combustion engine. No gas station visits and even with the high cost of electricity in Germany (0,3€/kWh) it's still worth it. Only when driving longer distances (>250km) you need to plan ahead for charging and trips take longer (1-3 hours).

That is really expensive electricity. Does anyone and everyone with the ability to finance solar panels just install them pronto, or do you not have net metering?

Putting electricity into the grid is almost useless in Germany because you don’t get much back. Solar panels and the legal stuff behind them is expensive and it will take many years to break even. Might be better with an electric car, but you charge your car at night usually. When there isn’t a lot of sun available.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#238

Post by jackdeansmith »

cabaalis wrote: post #203

Can someone who knows more about the subject that I do comment on the statement "electric powered vehicles are coal powered vehicles?" I'm seeing that in conservative circles.

Even an EV powered 100% by coal is creating less emissions than a gas powered vehicle, the reason for this is that electric drivetrains are very efficient.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#239

Post by sunstone »

abeppu wrote: post #202

I'm curious how many EV purchasers live in single family homes, or other places where they can provide their own ability to charge at home. I wonder if a new scale of adoption will require a change where most (or a lot) of street parking is by cheap charging. https://youtu.be/RMxB7zA-e4Y?t=1245

The idea of providing charging outlets at the base of street lamp poles seems like a practical way of helping transition to EV's.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#240

Post by buran77 »

gambiting wrote: post #207
buran77 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are about the only way to comply except pure BEVs On paper. In reality [0][1] unless you drive all electric all or most of the time the actual, real life CO2 emissions are far worse. Because now you have an ICE engine that hauls around an extra battery and electric motor, occasionally inefficiently charging the battery by burning gasoline. Many (most?) PHEVs owners don't have charging at home (reason to buy hy…

I bought a PHEV a year ago and the fuel savings are enormous. I've been filling it up once every 3 months so far, most of my journeys are done in fully electric mode, and when they are not I'm averaging 100-150mpg. Charging at home is pretty easy, but I do have my own driveway which I realize a lot of people don't. But yes, UK company tax structure around them is absolutely broken. You can get one, get a massive tax…

This just confirms what I said above, if you drive them all electric it's great, they're an EV with a small battery. But if you can't and just charge occasionally the fuel consumption and CO2 emissions are nowhere close to the official numbers, as evidenced by the studies I linked above. I see this struck a nerve with some people but the reality is that those are only best case and the people who meet them are the long tail of the numbers.

And that's the crux of the matter, most people buy hybrids because they can't charge at home. Those cars end up driving a lot on gas. If you can't conveniently charge at home or at work, waiting for 1.5-2h to charge for 40-50Km is far less appealing than 3 minutes for 500Km worth of gas. Place more chargers and make gas more expensive than electricity and the situation would probably change.

One specific German manufacturer featured in the studies I linked above sees most of the kilometers driven in their hybrids using the ICE, with a lot of that time the ICE inefficiently charging the battery, and almost cancelling out the fuel efficiency brought by the electrification. The number of people who see anything close to the officially estimated fuel consumption or CO2 emissions is vanishingly low. And the manufacturer knows it but they aren't ready with EVs, they have to meet new fleet regulations, and they wanted to benefit from the incentives the German government offers to manufacturers for any EV or PHEV.

Looking at a family member in this situation (the one who provided me with the statistics from the manufacturer), they drove ~2000Km in a brand new PHEV with ~11 liters + 9KWh per 100Km. The manufacturer suggests ~2 liters per 100Km. That's where most efficiency numbers revolve for that particular PHEV. It doesn't help that where they live in Germany charging the battery at a public charger even when assuming the full ~40Km range is 30% more expensive per Km than filling the tank but this is a local issue that's not generally applicable.

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