Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets • Hacker News Board

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#231

Post by Blikkentrekker » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #225

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember some research with respect to the U.S.A. where such routine checkups are common, and it concluded that it was close to useless to do so. Routine checkups never happen where I live. — one visits a healer when one feel sick.

Here is a medical editorial which makes the same point and cites the relevant research. Routine annual check ups are probably a waste of resources in most cases. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1507485

For there to be benefit to an annual checkup, it would need to fall in the window wherein symptoms have not yet occurred, but the disease is already measurable, and also one that is searched for in those checkups.

I haven't visited a general practitioner in a decade, and when I last went it was indeed because of I noticed the symptoms of of an ear-infection that I indeed suffered.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#232

Post by gillesjacobs » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

CraneWorm wrote: post #166

gillesjacobs wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes to show how important culture and religion can be in diet. Eating seafood instead of meat once a week, usually on Friday, is a widespread Christian practice called the Friday Fast. [1] In Europe, I know a lot of people that still stick to this practice even without practicing Christianity. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_Fast

> seafood instead of meat most of that's still meat though?

The wikipedia page states more correctly: "animal meat, other than fish".

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#233

Post by nradov » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #128

woutr_be wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beg to differ. What is considered as normal in some cultures, can be considered offensive in other cultures. It's not because those people lack empathy.

What matters is who is doing the considering. Each friendship between people is its own "culture" in that sense; I don't generally do things that my friend would consider offensive, if they are actually my friend. It's nothing to do with the wider culture or ethnic environment, or what third parties may or may not be offended by: I don't do things that I know would hurt my friends.

You're describing a very superficial form of friendship. A true friend holds you accountable and tells you what you need to hear, even when it offends you.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#234

Post by rconti » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

neartheplain wrote: post #168

marcyb5st wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Italian person (also our life expectancy is really good on average) this hits home. An anecdotal example: I now live in Switzerland and my current doctor was shocked when I ask to get some blood analysis without being sick. He believed that I lied to my insurance company and hid some pre-existing condition. In Italy, instead, it is pretty common that every couple of years you get a complete blood analysis just…

As an American with good health insurance, I’ve gotten blood labs with my annual physical since at least the mid-2000s.

Why do you get an annual physical?

I'm also an American with good health insurance (PPO not HMO if that makes a difference). My GP is at Stanford, although she only seems to practice once a week or something (it can be hard to get an appointment).

I go to the doctor when something's bothering me, but that's about it. It's never been suggested that I go regularly. (I'm not quite 40 yet, so maybe that's the difference?)

My dentist on the other hand, sends me a postcard every 6mo.. :)

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#235

Post by gillesjacobs » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

calvano915 wrote: post #216

gillesjacobs wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Belgium, my general practitioner told me it used to be common practice to simple cross every box on the blood test selection sheet for a client's annual checkup. Right now there is rightfully pushback against unnecessary testing. Over-medicalization by which people are subjected to treatment without suffering under symptoms is very much a problem. Also the socialized healthcare providers are not happy with this, a…

Why conflate over/unnecessary treatment with availability and evaluation of markers? I guess if neither the patient nor the health care practitioner are uninterested in careful consideration of the data, then why bother I suppose. But then why bother at all with seat-belts, environmental laws, or dental visits if there's no value to prevention? We can just react after its too late, for everything. /s in some of this,…

There's a multitude of reasons, touched upon in a metastudy of inappropriate lab testing in medicine [1,2]:

> “But, unexpectedly, on a per-test basis, we actually found that the main problem was tests being over-ordered during a patient’s initial examination, rather than during repeat tests. This indicates to us that ordering the right test during the initial evaluation may lead to fewer errors and better patient care,” he said.

a. Tests are not accurate, a false positive causes alarm and follow-up examination where none was present.

b. On the inverse: negative tests provide a false sense of security and good-health. [2] discusses this as the prime motivator for patient blood test requests.

c. Economic cost to the insurer or ultimately patient/taxpayer, not of the tests themselves but of the downstream examinations.

As a general rule in medicine: Don't treat a patient without signs or symptoms. When a persons feels healthy, they usually are healthy.

1. https://hms.harvard.edu/news/unnecessary-testing

2. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1769380/

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#236

Post by calvano915 » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

gillesjacobs wrote: post #235

calvano915 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why conflate over/unnecessary treatment with availability and evaluation of markers? I guess if neither the patient nor the health care practitioner are uninterested in careful consideration of the data, then why bother I suppose. But then why bother at all with seat-belts, environmental laws, or dental visits if there's no value to prevention? We can just react after its too late, for everything. /s in some of this,…

There's a multitude of reasons, touched upon in a metastudy of inappropriate lab testing in medicine [1,2]: > “But, unexpectedly, on a per-test basis, we actually found that the main problem was tests being over-ordered during a patient’s initial examination, rather than during repeat tests. This indicates to us that ordering the right test during the initial evaluation may lead to fewer errors and better patient car…

I appreciate all those considerations but prevention of disease is all about identifying issues that may disrupt ones current feelings of and actual healthy state.

We cannot keep waiting for randomized experimental research to identify all the ways health may degrade over time. If we can regularly gather data en masse, we regularly over time can identify more predictors and risk factors for poor (and good) health, and evaluate efficacy of treatments received or effects from lack of treatment.

Again, why pay for seatbelts (and get tickets for not having them) in vehicles if I've have no history of accidents, or receive preventative dental care despite no serious current oral issues, etc.

Why do we have heat sensors in vehicles? The vehicles I've driven in life have never overheated.

Somehow we continue to excuse doctors who practice poorly by treating by markers alone rather than the whole picture (including the patients feelings and desires), or despite contraindications for the treatment being considered.

Somehow the only practical solution is to allow health degradation, and then rush to identify and treat and attempt reversal.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#237

Post by neartheplain » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #234

neartheplain wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American with good health insurance, I’ve gotten blood labs with my annual physical since at least the mid-2000s.

Why do you get an annual physical? I'm also an American with good health insurance (PPO not HMO if that makes a difference). My GP is at Stanford, although she only seems to practice once a week or something (it can be hard to get an appointment). I go to the doctor when something's bothering me, but that's about it. It's never been suggested that I go regularly. (I'm not quite 40 yet, so maybe that's the difference?…

It’s covered by insurance, and my doctor recommends it. I’ve caught a couple health problems early that could’ve turned into something major.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#238

Post by marcyb5st » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

egr wrote: post #226

marcyb5st wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Italian person (also our life expectancy is really good on average) this hits home. An anecdotal example: I now live in Switzerland and my current doctor was shocked when I ask to get some blood analysis without being sick. He believed that I lied to my insurance company and hid some pre-existing condition. In Italy, instead, it is pretty common that every couple of years you get a complete blood analysis just…

This seems indeed anecdotal. I would consider a blood test every couple of years a default practice among GPs in Switzerland. Among other measures that fall under the "prevention is better than treatment" scheme such as free skin cancer screening or colon cancer screening from a certain age. I find the described reaction of your doctor to be out of the ordinary, and with relation to the described accusation unaccepta…

Thanks. I ended up doing exactly what you said for other reasons (Covid). Now I have what is called telemedicine where I call some number where I describe my symptoms and I might get a prescription right away or some tests. I did it to minimize the interaction with people that have an higher chance of having covid due to their line of work.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#239

Post by marcyb5st » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

throwaway6734 wrote: post #191

marcyb5st wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Italian person (also our life expectancy is really good on average) this hits home. An anecdotal example: I now live in Switzerland and my current doctor was shocked when I ask to get some blood analysis without being sick. He believed that I lied to my insurance company and hid some pre-existing condition. In Italy, instead, it is pretty common that every couple of years you get a complete blood analysis just…

>In Italy, instead, it is pretty common that every couple of years you get a complete blood analysis just to see if everything is ok and whether you need to change something in your lifestyle. This sounds like a great idea

I agree. Other people here mentioned that sounds like a waste of money, but I honestly am not sure as I don't have good figures about how different treatments cost.

However, I believe that by doing so I can avoid preventable conditions later in my life and it's well worth it both for my quality of life and potentially for other people as I might not need that much medical assistance and leave it for those who need it.

Re: Japanese people may have gained longevity by balancing their diets

#240

Post by marcyb5st » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #195

marcyb5st wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Italian person (also our life expectancy is really good on average) this hits home. An anecdotal example: I now live in Switzerland and my current doctor was shocked when I ask to get some blood analysis without being sick. He believed that I lied to my insurance company and hid some pre-existing condition. In Italy, instead, it is pretty common that every couple of years you get a complete blood analysis just…

I remember some research with respect to the U.S.A. where such routine checkups are common, and it concluded that it was close to useless to do so. Routine checkups never happen where I live. — one visits a healer when one feel sick.

Maybe it's egoist to do so, but if by doing check-ups I can improve the quality of my life when I'm older then I'm all in for that.

Moreover, some preventable conditions don't show symptoms. High cholesterol, for instance, doesn't show any symptoms until one of your blood vessels is clogged, but chances are that by then is too late and you might suffer a stroke/heart attack.

I don't know how much the average treatment for those costs, but I would say way less than few tens of blood/urine tests. Or even more "stealing" a good heart because you need a transplant due to a preventable condition.

By the way now I circumvent the Swiss reluctance to prevention by going to Italy and paying the analysis out of my pocket. It's still very cheap (~100 Euros every 18 month on average).