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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#231

Post by moate »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #154
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #26

I asked this in the google union thread, but was too late to the party to get any answers. Copy pasting it here: Everybody here seems to agree that unions have the potential to do good or bad in every thread on it. The next logical step to me is that there needs to be a selection mechanism in place. For companies, the selection mechanism is competition. If someone else does better, the consumer or worker can choose s…

Why would people want competition on a union? They don't work like corporations - competition weakens them. I think this fundamentally misunderstands the purpose and function of a union.

So they can pose hypothetical arguments about the corruption of the as-yet unformed union in an effort to undermine support for it. "What if the union is BAD!? We should consider other things before we lock ourselves into a democratic power-structure that allows greater agency for the laboring class against management because reasons!"

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#232

Post by oh_sigh »

simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

Have you read anything about the Google "union"? It is a basically a joke that .0001% of the company signed in on. You shouldn't use it as a data point on any kind of trend.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#233

Post by Sodman »

moate wrote: post #223
Sodman wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that democracy is imperfect, it can be (and is) frequently gamed and manipulated. Many people are worried about the following scenario: - Software engineers unionize - Some "bad" rules get implemented, perhaps passing vote by misleading slogans or over-represented groups etc. Maybe it was a narrow 51% vs 49% vote. - Top talent leaves, over time that 51% in favor of the bad rules becomes a larger and la…

So we agree that "nothing is perfect". My question is why did this group unionize if nothing has changed for the better (in your words "its the same as before except now you owe union dues")? Wouldn't it be more likely that the group makes some gains, some losses and is better for most of the people in the group overall? That tends to be what happens in real unionization efforts (I'm more than happy to provide case s…

I should clarify that I was talking specifically about unionizing as tech workers. Warehouse workers are a totally different situation. My opinion is admittedly strongly influenced by the fact that at most tech companies I've worked for, the conditions have been great, and any strong employee feedback and reasonable demands were usually listened to and acted up by management. The same can obviously not be said for warehouse workers, so unionizing would almost certainly benefit them.

I'll agree that there would most likely be some gains and some losses. I'm just not personally convinced the gains will outweigh the losses for software engineers specifically.

I think the key difference here between warehouse workers and tech workers is that if non-union talks with management break down, most tech workers can move jobs and keep similar benefits/comp/location without huge effort, the same can't be said of many warehouse workers.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#234

Post by dragonwriter »

stretchcat wrote: post #230
quandrum wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wage theft is the most common crime in the US, is estimated to occur to ~20% of all employees and equal tens of billions a year, and no one talks about it. How many union members do you think experience wage theft?

The US Department of Labor takes wage theft very seriously. If you report it to them, at no cost to yourself, they will investigate it and almost certainly scare your boss shitless so he'll never try it again. Probably they could do a better job of advertising this to workers. Many workers experiencing wage theft probably are not aware of their options, and that's a problem. But when used, it works. I've seen it work…

> The US Department of Labor takes wage theft very seriously.

As, often, do state labor authorities.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#235

Post by edent »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #116
edent wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how it works in the UK. I have a choice of unions in my workplace. Some are targeted more at one job sector than another - but all of them will gladly take my (cheap!) subscription. I get a vote in the union's policies. Employers can't require you to be a member of a specific union - or any union at all. You ccany join at any time - or leave whenever you want. What does it take? Just join a union and get othe…

I'm curious how that works with regards to your contract. Do you get to pick a different contract, with different terms, benefits, etc., depending on which union you join, or are contract terms not negotiated directly by your union in the UK?

In my current and previous workplace, the unions negotiate the group contract. For example setting pay bands, group benefits, etc. The union can also represent you during disciplinary proceedings. There's nothing stopping you negotiating more if you want - or can.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#236

Post by j_walter »

ryanmercer wrote: post #132
j_walter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never fully understood public unions to be honest. Unions used to be the best way to protect yourself from a bad employer...but the employer is the government (and to some extent the people). It used to be that public sector workers made less in exchange for better benefits, but in the last few years the war was waged on the public to increase wages to that of "private companies". Now teachers in my state make m…

>Now teachers in my state make more than an average BS degree and work 9 months of the year...along with better medical and retirement benefits. They still claim they are underpaid They are. A few years ago I still thought they were oeverpaid and then I married a teacher. She's absolutely underpaid. It is very much not a 9-5 job and, that time off during the summer - some of it get used for required continued educati…

That is not how math works. My kids day care has a government mandated 8 to 1 ratio. That teacher doesn't get paid 8x the average wage to watch kids. I don't pay $25/hr for my 2 kids to be at daycare.

A local babysitter can watch more than 1 kid for that $12.75 an hour as well...it's not per kid.

Nice try. Also, continued education is a requirement as it should be for such a career, but don't forget that her pay will go up as she completes credits (on top of her yearly increase).

Just so you know, teachers in my area start at $55K/yr right now, not including benefits.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#237

Post by [deleted] »

pugets wrote: post #89
nostromo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

There are a lot of liberal/leftist communities online with that same gripe. Democrats pander to "pop politics" but have no plans for labor reform, healthcare reform, etc. that would go a long ways to helping the majority of the people in this country. It's all theater.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#238

Post by schoolornot »

ibudiallo wrote: post #64

Unions were proponents for worker safety, fair wages, anti-discrimination. They are the reason why such thing as OSHA exists today. They are the reason some laws were passed to protect workers in the US. But once these mandates became law, corporations used the arguments of "why do we need unions if the law already protects workers?" This and following Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers changed the image…

Grew up in a union family where I benefited greatly from the protections provided. But it seems to me that they really only help blue collar workers get higher, some would say reasonable, wages. As someone who worked their ass off for 10 years since graduating and negotiated my way to a senior role, I haven't seen one compelling reason to let someone negotiate on my behalf. Think of the smartest engineer you know. Are they in a union? Probably not.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#239

Post by maximente »

joshe wrote: post #80
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

American unions are quite different from European unions. European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs and doing things like advocating for more productivity. Like trying to figure out how to make the shop floor more efficient. American unions spend time preventing bad employees from being fired (like the NY teacher's rubber rooms and police unions fighting the firing of cops with 5 excessive f…

i mean, yeah, is it really a surprise? most of the purpose (in terms of "the purpose of a thing is what it does" thinking) of organized labor in the US is basically countering ridiculous labor conditions: child labor, not having weekends, etc. when that didn't work, in came the police and the pinkertons (read: violence by the state on behalf of capital, or just violence via capital itself). so it's no surprise that the relationship is adversarial.

plus, i don't really buy this anti-union propaganda. there's a strong correlation between between union membership going down and wealth inequality going up. i didn't say that was causation, but is it interesting enough to warrant consideration? hell yes it is.

i'm guessing most people on this sites are of engineering mind, where they see an "unnecessary" layer of abstraction upon something as worth refactoring out. well... this ain't really in that lane, you see. it turns out that capital is so powerful in the 21st C. that they can straight up move your job to a country with worse environmental and labor regulations, and we all cheer it on in the name of "efficiency". little do we appreciate that that attack on labor is rotting the hell out of the country itself.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#240

Post by [deleted] »

joshe wrote: post #80
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

American unions are quite different from European unions. European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs and doing things like advocating for more productivity. Like trying to figure out how to make the shop floor more efficient. American unions spend time preventing bad employees from being fired (like the NY teacher's rubber rooms and police unions fighting the firing of cops with 5 excessive f…

[deleted]
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