School or Prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School or Prison

#231

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #168

ineedasername wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stress level and difficulty of teaching (while accurate statements) are not relevant to this issue. You can't excuse poor treatment of the biological needs of students simply because you have a very difficult job. My comment was also not a reductive statement when I've been told "no" when I ask to go to the bathroom, or told "3 people have already gone to the bathroom, you'll have to wait until next period." Both…

> I watched a classmate pee their pants once when they were denied access to the bathroom. I wish that had resulted in a lawsuit.

That made me think "Yes, there should be". So I did a quick search and in fact it's not hard to find examples: https://fox5sandiego.com/news/parent-sues-school-after-child...

Re: School or Prison

#232

Post by mhh__ » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

jamespwilliams wrote: post #46

In the UK our prisons often look nicer than our (state) schools. Many of our prisons are quite ancient, whereas many of our state schools are 1960s monstrosities. For example: * https://hidden-london.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/geograp... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/James_Ho... * https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1185483.ece/ALT... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com…

I concede that modernist architecture hasn't aged particularly well, but I grew up in a fairly deprived area of the UK (Torbay) and all the schools are in fairly good condition. The worst one I visited was a private one, even.

Point being that you can cherry pick any answer

Re: School or Prison

#233

Post by musicale » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #225

Before I go off topic, very cool and interesting app. I was surprised by the number of times I got it wrong. Now then... There's a lot of people crapping on schools and teachers in this thread, and as a former teacher and spouse of a teacher I'd like to point out a few things: Schools and teachers provide a vital service. Not only do they educate our children, they babysit our children, and the pandemic has shown us…

> they babysit our children

I think realizing that daycare with some level of adult supervision and guidance is the primary purpose of much of K-12 could allow us to design better schools that are more like kindergartens, recreation centers, laboratory facilities, art and performance studios, and libraries, and less like factories and prisons.

Though thinking about the factory bit, I do think that craft and maker facilities, as well as gardens and outdoor building areas, are nice to have in schools, making students the creators and crafters rather than the products.

Re: School or Prison

#234

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #175

throwaway201103 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it depended on the class. Business school classes were very much like high school, at least the ones I took (I was not a business major). Assigned seats, attendance taken, etc. Don't recall if bathroom trips needed permission as I always handled that before class started. Math and science classes were generally much more informal. Class met at a specified time and place, and nobody paid much attentio…

> Class met at a specified time and place, and nobody paid much attention to who was there or not At my university, attendance at lectures and tutorials was optional and no attendance was taken (for most subjects). Most people went to the lectures but attendance at tutorials was much more mixed. I tended to skip tutorials a lot. I remember one year I promised myself "This year I'm going to turn up to everything". So…

> In hindsight, maybe I should have complained, I probably could have got that tutor in a lot of trouble. But I didn't.

Might be good you didn't. I obviously don't know the particulars here, but I've learned that the attitude of the university teaching staff can be confusing because of non-obvious job reasons.

At my university, there was this PhD having labs with us who I liked - she seemed one of the smarter and wiser of the people I've dealt with up to that point. A year or two after those classes, we ended up having a discussion about upcoming changes in the curriculum. I asked if she'll still be running the same labs she did with us, at which point she almost burst into tears and said something like, "oh god I hope not". I was perplexed by it, until she explained to me that she never wanted these labs, she was forced by her superiors to run them, and they are completely unrelated to the domain of her research. That insight made me understand several other cases of PhDs and professors that seemed incompetent and/or disinterested - it's not that they were bad or stupid; it's because the university mismanaged them into teaching things entirely outside their domain.

Re: School or Prison

#235

Post by Balgair » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

cyberbanjo wrote: post #4

Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons? Michel Foucault

1984's From Bauhaus to Our House by Tom Wolfe is a great dive into the 'modern' look. It's not a deep look, but a fun one all the same (it is Tom Wolfe after all).

He traces the design we all see in the downtowns to the works of early german communists and their desire for good looking spaces and architecture that could cheaply be made for the masses in the coming revolution of the working classes. When capitalists heard about it they stopped listening after 'cheap' was uttered. "Oh, this is the 'modern' look and it's the new thing and it's cheap? Do 'em all like that then."

My recollection of Wolfe's short piece is a bit dated, but that's the theme as I remember. It's a short and fun little satirical look at how the 80's downtowns got to be looking as such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Bauhaus_to_Our_House

As an aside, I wonder how Minecraft is going to change the look of architects and cities in the future. I'm dead certain that the architects of the 2070s will have gotten their love of design in Minecraft.

Re: School or Prison

#236

Post by TylerE » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:38 AM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #202

Aerroon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but generally people go to those places because they want to, or because it offers them a favorable outcome that they're willing to temporarily trade some autonomy for. I don't think this is why kids go to school. You go to school because you have to . There is no realistic option not to go. If you don't go, then you'll be forcefully put into a school for troubled kids. Even if you don't consider the above, there i…

I wish there were solid alternatives to school. I hate the current system but I also want my kids to be socialised and have friends. I'd definitely pay a private company providing "home schooling" and using a different model of education where kids are learning by doing instead of memorising crap and at the same time can share a location with other kids of the same age (+ a few tutor available to unblock kids when ne…

Isn’t that basically a Montessori school?

"The Montessori method of education is an educational method developed by Italian physician Maria Montessori. Emphasizing independence, it views children as naturally eager for knowledge and capable of initiating learning in a sufficiently supportive and well-prepared learning environment. It discourages some conventional measures of achievement, such as grades and tests."

Re: School or Prison

#237

Post by souplesse » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:39 AM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #185

souplesse wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments here suggest you're in the majority with your experience, though I wonder if there might be a little participation bias with regard to strong memories of such bad policies. As a contrast, at my school the policy was far more reasonable: you still needed permission to leave, but if you didn't abuse the privilege—using it every day, or disappearing for half the lesson—the teacher wouldn't give you any grief.

That sounds like a very similar policy to the one the parent described. Essentially, it's up to the teacher to decide. Unless they codified what "abuse the privilege" meant, you're still at the mercy of a teacher's whims.

I'd say "judgment" rather than the significantly more loaded "whims", but you're right, the policy still relies on a human arbiter.

A codified system is bound to introduce problems: 'You get one bathroom break during class per week, and you've used yours, but this is an emergency? Sorry, I trust you, but the system says I have to give you detention if you go.'

My point was that the problem was with GP's specific (though perhaps commonplace) school culture/teachers, not the general idea of requiring permission.

Re: School or Prison

#238

Post by Shared404 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:40 AM UTC

pvorb wrote: post #211

amelius wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teacher faces the same problem. Taxi/bus drivers have the same problem.

But often there's too few bathrooms for too many children, so they can't go in those five minutes when they're supposed to. That was my experience at least.

The "Why didn't you go to the bathroom during lunch? \n The bathroom during lunch: " memes all have a grain of truth.

Re: School or Prison

#239

Post by Aunche » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:41 AM UTC

HeavenFox wrote: post #194

Aunche wrote: post #182

In China, a lot of schools in poorer areas have bars with them, which makes them look like prisons. These aren't highly competitive schools, so it doesn't make sense for the bars to be for the students. Rather they're to prevent people from breaking in and stealing the furniture. https://img.i-scmp.com/cdn-cgi/image/fit=contain,width=1098,...

That isn’t unique to schools though. In older buildings outside of gated communities, they are extremely common in first floor and second floor apartments too.

That's a good point. It's especially noticeable with schools though because they're often isolated and completely empty very often. This makes them look especially prison-like.

Re: School or Prison

#240

Post by pengaru » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 12:42 AM UTC

saithound wrote: post #207

pengaru wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because students won't turn that into your permanent nickname mr. peepeepants.

They will, but you won't have to register as a sex offender. Major difference in life outcomes.

What crack are you smoking? You simply get up and walk to the restroom like any normal person would. Teachers can largely be ignored, if they physically do anything to you it's lawsuit time.