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Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

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Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#231

Post by ck425 »

umvi wrote: post #102
chrisseaton wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the default should be that it's your right of way in the car? Why should pedestrians keep out of your way and not cross your path? Why don't we instead say you should keep out of the pedestrians way and not cross their path? Maybe we should reset the expectation that cars own the streets, and make them a guest there, deferring to human beings in the first instance.

> Why do you think the default should be that it's your right of way in the car? a) Because it's the law, b) because there's a power dynamic. I can accidentally kill a pedestrian, a pedestrian can't accidentally kill me unless they throw a brick off an overpass. > Why should pedestrians keep out of your way and not cross your path? So that they take responsibility for their own safety. > Why don't we instead say you…

> b) because there's a power dynamic. I can accidentally kill a pedestrian, a pedestrian can't accidentally kill me unless they throw a brick off an overpass.

I'd argue the opposite conclusion and say that as one operating dangerous machinery you should be given lower right of way for safety reasons. The burden should be on you to drive safely more than others to safely stay out of your way.

> So that they take responsibility for their own safety

And what about your responsibility as the person choosing to speed around in a ton of metal?

> In car-heavy suburban areas where everything is super spread out? I don't think this is a necessarily a good idea.

There's a chicken and the egg problem here. Such cities came about because of monopolization of streets by drivers. We can't change that over night but given the vast benefits of people centric urban design we should be tilting the balance away from cars and towards people.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#232

Post by rconti »

bigbubba wrote: post #208
marricks wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many US cities are designed to be downright hostile to pedestrians, California in particular. Some areas in Orange County have blocks before cross walks, or cross walks only on one side of the street so you had to make the right decision a block ago about which side of the street to be on! Strip malls seemed designed to have people drive the 1k feet between businesses rather than having accessible walking. With city…

I don't think I've ever seen an American strip mall without a wide sidewalk running in front of every business on the strip. The sidewalk is such an integral component of a strip mall, it sounds like what you're describing isn't a strip mall at all. And if people are so lazy that they drive around the parking lot instead of using the sidewalk, that reflects on them, not the sidewalk.

Walking TO the strip mall, not walking across the storefronts. Strip malls typically have awful pedestrian accommodations in the parking lot; there's often no "safe" way to get from the street to the stores.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#234

Post by momokoko »

underseacables wrote: post #160

It’s very interesting to visit compact cities like San Francisco, DC, and NYY, and see how much people jaywalk without a worry. Having walked across the street outside of a crosswalk an uncountable number of times, I cannot recall ever being stopped or being alone. Seems people can adequately decide the risk. It would be better to put the onerous on safety back on to vehicles, but this new law could be used to justif…

This is because, at least in California and New York, jaywalking is not a crime. It is a civil infraction.

This means there is no criminal record or court/jail time. It’s a ticket just like a parking or speeding ticket. I find it hard to believe people believe we should be allowed to just hang out in the street. It’s there for general safety of everyone. Could we adjust the rule to account for situations where no cars are around? Sure. But obviously we can’t have a rule where people are allowed to just cross busy city streets at will anywhere. It would be terrible for overall mobility in the city as well as dangerous.

These articles are just typical internet extremism and conspiracy theories about “Big Something”. It’s a non issue most places.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#235

Post by avianlyric »

asguy wrote: post #226
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

> 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. Isn't this kind of leap? I've lived plenty of expensive places (e.g. downtown San Diego, Boston, Los Angeles) that had free/highways close to expensive property. What is leading you to believe highway construction targets the poor areas, other than those real estate markets are alread…

The role of highways and red-lining of federal house building loans in segregating and suppressing black communities is well documented. (You can argue about intention, but the effect is pretty apparent) [1]

Remember this happened in the 40s and 50s. Plenty has changed since then, including the gentrification of poor areas near highways. But that doesn’t change the history of the US highway system.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/03/role-of...

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#236

Post by njharman »

woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Um, the biggest one POLUTION! Including lead poisoning of a couple generations due to leaded gas.

Disastrous foreign Mid East policies to secure oil.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#237

Post by avianlyric »

bigbubba wrote: post #204
twblalock wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think car-free cities are easily obtainable. I can't think of one that currently exists. Even cities with world-class mass transit, e.g. Tokyo and London, are full of cars, and taxis are still a better option for some trips -- even though there are also surface trains, subways, and buses to choose from. In those places, step 1 has already been solved: convince the population that mass transit is desirable and…

Nobody drives in those cities; there is too much traffic.

Somebody has to be driving, otherwise the traffic would just be a bunch of empty cars.

But I agree the majority of locals don’t drive.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#238

Post by canofbars »

njharman wrote: post #236
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Um, the biggest one POLUTION! Including lead poisoning of a couple generations due to leaded gas. Disastrous foreign Mid East policies to secure oil.

There is a credible theory that the use of leaded fuel was responsible for the spike in violent crime that occurred in the same period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#239

Post by culopatin »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #209
altdatathrow wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> small college town That's the key phrase. Police in small towns of America have nothing better to do than setup ways of levying fines against outsiders so they can afford to upgrade their cruisers to the latest dodge chargers or outfit everyone with DOD hand-me-down weaponry.

Police in small towns are mostly fine and don't care about petty stuff because they have meth labs and whatnot to give them perspective. Police in wealthy suburbs, rural retirement small towns, tourist destinations and college towns are mostly not fine because they don't have much Real Crime(TM) to give them perspective.

Yeah right. Except that if you drive around the country enough you’ll find out that speed trap towns are usually small towns with nothing better to do. One pharmacy, a subway, 2 gas stations but 5 cruisers waiting for you to go over the silly 30mph limit imposed right after the crest of a bridge.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#240

Post by canofbars »

ericmcer wrote: post #176
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

Car free cities are super obtainable but seem like a total impossibility. We will never trade safety, health and solitude for convenience.

We don't have to trade convenience. We have to trade houses for apartments. Cars are largely what make having a house in the middle of nowhere largely possible.
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