Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 280 posts

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#231

Post by dwild »

microcolonel wrote: post #28
kache_ wrote: post #17

Reminder; tax avoidance != tax fraud.

I honestly don't understand why “tax avoidance” is meant to sound so naughty. Almost everyone avoids taxes, almost every time they might be subject to a tax; some people are just better at it. When you fail to collect taxes from somebody who is following the law, that is a matter for your tax code, not a moral failing of the filer.

I put free candy on my porch, anyone can take some, someone take them all, isn't he bad for doing so? I would say kind of ;).

Thing is though, tax avoidance in the level Trump would have done is another layer way crazier. Most people can't take theses candies, but he can. At one point losing that much money over that many year start to be too much.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#232

Post by mmcconnell1618 »

makomk wrote: post #230
mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have kept reading: Mr. Trump paid alternative minimum tax in seven years between 2000 and 2017 — a total of $24.3 million, excluding refunds he received after filing. For 2015, he paid $641,931, his first payment of any federal income tax since 2010.

So basically, the big headline "$750 in income tax" claim that's been repeated everywhere else and gone viral on social media is technically true but also massively misleading to the tune of millions of dollars? Guess that figures for media coverage of anything remotely involving Trump in 2020. Also, this Reuters piece is terrible at the time of writing my reply: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-taxes-idUK…

It looks like Trump has paid millions in taxes at some times but also has more than $1 billion in losses that have offset almost all of his taxes for decades. My takeaway is that he has been able to rake in huge amounts of money (like $200 million+ from the Apprentice) but he then pours it into businesses that appear to lose money on paper. He lives his life on the back on these businesses so his lifestyle is almost 100% deductible. He's found away to keep spending an extra 20% to 30% by avoiding income tax. However, he's also spending like a drunken sailor and currently has more than $400 million in loans due in just a few years with personal guarantees.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#233

Post by makomk »

maxlybbert wrote: post #175
phobosanomaly wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking more in the category of buying a failing company in anticipation of using it's annual losses to create tax benefits. The level at which you and I are engineering this stuff is kid's play. But that's kind of the idea. If you have extensive amounts of money, you hire a team to engineer getting you out of paying your fair share, I think the average person has the right to be upset about that, since all of t…

I wouldn’t claim to be a tax expert. I was responding to a comment that used the term “overpay taxes” differently from how I would. Sure, if you overpay your estimated tax during the year, that’s overpaying. So is failing to use deductions and credits that you qualify for. I only wanted to clarify the distinction. I’m happy to add that it’s no surprise people consider taxes when they make decisions, and in some cases…

If I'm understanding the article correctly, the New York Times isn't counting the millions it found that Trump paid in alternative minimum tax over the years when making all its big, attention-grabbing viral claims about how little income tax he paid because technically alternative minimum tax is a different, seperate thing from income tax.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#234

Post by dathanb82 »

koheripbal wrote: post #215
fjdjsmsm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article lists several examples of things that go beyond avoidance. He paid millions in mysterious ‘consulting’ fees that appear to have gone to his kids, despite them being employees. He declared that he had no financial benefit in a business he walked away from despite still owning 5 percent of it. ...

Again, a lot of these things are pretty common in business. My Dad has a business, and pays me a consultancy fee. I pay consultancy fees to my wife. None of this is unusual for a family business.

It is unusual to pay your children as regular employees and also pay them as consultants, tho.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#235

Post by dathanb82 »

wwright wrote: post #74
CamperBob2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate, at what scale should I instruct my CPA not to take every deduction I'm entitled to?

In my opinion: when you could be paying tens of thousands or more to support others, instead you are paying $0, and you know other people who barely make half the median household income are paying 20–30% of their total income. Do these rules exist for other people? Yes! Is he possibly only taking advantage of what others allow him to do? Sure! Is it still selfish and trivially anti-social? Yes. If they made it legal…

If you make half the median national household income, you’re making about $30K, and your effective federal tax rate is barely over 14%. Your 20%-30% scenario doesn’t seem to add up.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#236

Post by dathanb82 »

maxlybbert wrote: post #89
microcolonel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand why “tax avoidance” is meant to sound so naughty. Almost everyone avoids taxes, almost every time they might be subject to a tax; some people are just better at it. When you fail to collect taxes from somebody who is following the law, that is a matter for your tax code, not a moral failing of the filer.

Judge Learned Hand (not the Supreme Court, but often quoted; I'm sure partly for the name): "Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes" (Gregory v. Helvering, 1934) "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging o…

I’d be interested in better understanding why Trump didn’t owe more under AM, since most regular deductions don’t apply in that case.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#237

Post by implements »

koheripbal wrote: post #215
fjdjsmsm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article lists several examples of things that go beyond avoidance. He paid millions in mysterious ‘consulting’ fees that appear to have gone to his kids, despite them being employees. He declared that he had no financial benefit in a business he walked away from despite still owning 5 percent of it. ...

Again, a lot of these things are pretty common in business. My Dad has a business, and pays me a consultancy fee. I pay consultancy fees to my wife. None of this is unusual for a family business.

Do the regulations require that such fees must be ‘honest’ ie be for actual work and proportional to the market value of that work?

Are the fees declared to the IRS and all relevant taxes paid?

No need to answer (it’s your private business), but just because petty abuses are common and rarely caught doesn’t mean they’re legitimate business practices.

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#238

Post by kthejoker2 »

I think Trump missed his calling. He clearly could make a mint showing people how to maximize their tax avoidance schemes, The Apprentice-style.

Can you imagine how awesome a Fox News show it would be to have him Gordon Ramsay-style berating some mom and pop real estate brokerage in Cincinnati? Saving someone millions of bucks, sticking it to "The Feds" and "suckers"?

As a grievance-based populist, he'd have all that clout and people stoking his ego and we'd have an actual functional government.

Just a real shame. Someone should call him up and start a negotiation ...

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#239

Post by bradlys »

me_me_me wrote: post #187
digitaltrees wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No conflict of interest there. Nothing to see folks. This is total BS. At this point I am about to cut ties with my family that supports Trump. This is beyond anything approaching reason.

Why? Are they bad people? Cutting ties due to flavor of political leanings sounds very short sighted. My parents are religious I am not, catholic church was actively protecting pedophiles. Should I cut ties to my family??

Are people who protect institutions that protect rapists of children good people? Starts sounding like the Dave Chapelle skit: "He rapes but he saves!"

I wonder why we frame things in terms of, "are they bad" instead of asking, "are they good".

Re: Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance

#240

Post by SamBam »

jmcguckin wrote: post #112
pontus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the issues is that he has simultaneously told the opposite story to his lenders, making himself look wealthier than he is in order to score loans. This, is fraud.

When I bought my house (borrowing roughly 200K) the bank wanted several years of tax returns and basically put my finances under a microscope. Pretty much everything except the anal probe. So, you think a bank that's going to lend Trump 100 Million isn't going to examine his finances in greater detail?

It is quite possible that the loans were underwritten by other parties.

The fact that Trump is at least 300-400 million dollars in debt to unknown parties is a huge national security risk.

Post reply on HN