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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#231

Post by kstrauser »

electriclove wrote: post #3

Apple built their controlled ecosystem and set their rules. And now others are insisting that Apple should not have that control (even when they themselves are doing the same thing).

And furthermore, the Apple ecosystem is so popular because Apple curates the app store. I recommend their stuff to my non-techie relatives because I trust that they're not going to stumble their way into installing malware from some weird knockoff from Elbonia.

With an iPhone, for better or for worse, I can point them at the App Store... app... ("say 'app' again! I dare you!") and be reasonably confident they're getting the official Instagram app. There are multiple apps with "Instagram" in the name, but the official one is the top search result.

Contrast with the Chrome Web Store. The search results for "Instagram"[0] have a bunch of results from who-knows-where, and many of them contain the official logo somewhere inside their preview image. They all look they could be the real thing, but as far as I can tell, none of them are.

Going to the family's house for holidays use to mean spending some time cleaning the weird programs off of the in-laws' computer. Now it means uninstalling the odd Chrome extensions they've manage to find, and making them change their website passwords.

If it ever becomes super easy for Apple users to install random software they find on the Internet, I am throwing my older family members' iPhones into a lake and giving them a flip phone.

[0] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/instagram?hl=en-US...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#232

Post by gowld »

burlesona wrote: post #114
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

"console" doesn't mean much. Phone is special because for how humans actually live, having one phone is strong preferred over 5. But habit consoles isn't as much of a big deal. And despite what the binary thinkers claim, how humans actually live matters in law, at least as long as companies insist upon the peculiar formation of intellectual property rights.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#233

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

dlubarov wrote: post #136
asou wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Tinder's parent ( The Match Group ) got sued by the FTC for fraud, not very smart to include them. Intentionally making subscriptions hard to cancel is one of the behaviors Apple's payment system seeks to prevent. As much as I like Tim Sweeney's arguments for lower royalties, he doesn't have half a toe to stand on. Don't want to pay the Apple tax, make your own phone. This fairness coalition is free to ma…

> The government can not compel two companies to engage in a contract. It seems like there ought to be exceptions to prevent certain gatekeeping behavior. As a very extreme example, suppose a company bought up a set of private roads in such a way that without their roads, people in a certain area could not access the rest of the country. One would hope that the government would compel the gatekeeper to do business wi…

But apple didn't buy up anything preexisting -- they created the smartphone market from scratch and grew the user and developer base organically. You could argue that they leveraged their Mac developer base for this, but 1. the first iPhone didn't support third party apps and 2. there was nothing to leverage this developer base against because there was no smartphone market when the iPhone was released.

Also, if we accept that smartphones are a necessity on par with roads, iPhones aren't the only smartphones, and Androids aren't really that inferior. As a user, if you don't like iPhones, get an Android. As a developer, if you don't like developing for iPhones, develop for Android. If either group feels like they can't leave for Android because iPhones are that much better, well, that's Apple's reward for creating a good device and growing its user- and developer bases -- should they really be punished for that success?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#234

Post by Apocryphon »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #205
Apocryphon wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basecamp and Tile want walled gardens?

Epic and Spotify.

Sure, but what about the other names on the list? People are selectively focusing on only the major companies and neglecting that others have legitimate grievances.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#236

Post by supercanuck »

zepto wrote: post #134
onion2k wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Epic's game store the product is PC software. Epic don't control how all PC software is sold. On Apple's app store the product is iOS software. Apple do control how all iOS software is sold. Seriously, this isn't complicated...

Sure but it ‘iOS software’ is an arbitrary category. It’s all just software.

The iOS part makes it “not arbitrary”

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#237

Post by mthoms »

burlesona wrote: post #114
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

>To me the iPhone is a console, end of story.

I'm so tired of hearing this ridiculous analogy.

From a purely technical stand point it may be true, but for a large chunk of the population, the smartphone is their one and only connection to the digital world. It controls their connection to their bank accounts, governments, news/discourse, family, friends, dating life, education (formal and informal), medical information, insurance policies, wayfinding, weather forecasts and emergency services.

For those with disabilities, it affords them a quality of life they might not otherwise have. For others still, it contains their most personal thoughts, ideas, dreams and memories.

One can certainly argue that because of all that, the app ecosystem should be tightly controlled. That's fair. But the smartphone has grown beyond a simple "nice-to-have" utility. It's a base-level necessity for modern life.

Since this trend is only accelerating, we need to recognize that and frame our discussions accordingly.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#238

Post by temp667 »

user5994461 wrote: post #182
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

For reference, all of these practices are abusive and will void the subscription contract in civil law (Europe). Ask for a refund and perform a charge back if they don't refund. I wrote a detailed article about it, what every developer should know about software subscriptions and civil law: https://thehftguy.com/2020/09/08/what-every-developer-should...

Good lord, when you say someone has to go through a civil law litigation (in the US this is a nightmare) to just do a basic unsubscribe - you AGAIN demonstrate why the app store is popular.

Epic doesn't allow a civil law process, they force arbitration anyways. So the deck is stacked against you

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#239

Post by gowld »

burlesona wrote: post #114
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

How does letting me have a PC experience hurt your console experience? What gives you the right to force Epic into a console experience for everyone?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#240

Post by katbyte »

echelon wrote: post #167
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

The problem is when you let companies run free they do bad things. There are bad actors out there and apples wall garden keeps them at bay and in check. I LIKE not having to worry about what I install from the App Store. Adding random apks or even downloading anything from the play store can legitimately be unsafe.

At that I don’t trust companies with credit cards and subscriptions - I trust apple. I get an email for every renewal, but every charge, and cancelling is easy. Other stores and companies do not do that because letting you know means less money for then.

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