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'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

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Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#231

Post by pmoriarty »

baryphonic wrote: post #160

The mainstream reporting was so bad I just started looking on Twitter. I found both pro- and anti-"protest" accounts with video. Even the pro-protest account videos debunk the narrative that these are peaceful African-American protestors. Whenever one lets the mask slip or shows her hands or hair, it's a young white person. These are night time riots, plain and simple. Surveillance footage released by law enforcement…

"At this point, these Antifa people (who "don't exist," yet all show up at the same time and place in a uniform"

What uniform is that?

Wearing black and a mask? That could be anyone, including police provocateurs and right-wingers looking to pin the blame on protestors on the left.

It's ironic that so many people who weren't there, don't know anyone there -- least of all any of the people "in uniform" -- fancy themselves to knew best of all what's really going on on the ground.

Just for the record, I strongly condemn violence both on the right and on the left. I do this on ethical grounds, because I believe violence is wrong. But even on merely practical grounds, it's clear that those who encourage and engage in violence are playing right in to the hands of those who have the most guns, who think they have the support of the military and the police, and who are itching for violence to break out to use as an excuse to crack down hard or foment a civil war (which, of course, they think they'll win).

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#232

Post by coldpie »

gridlockd wrote: post #218
coldpie wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you even bring to the table? The end of protests? Protests are only being tolerated because of presumed public support, which has been dwindling due to some ugly scenes. The end of protests and a society that works better for everybody, yes. I'd love to have a public safety force that I felt I could rely on. Currently, I don't. > In many areas, the majority already voted in Democrats with the intention of h…

> The end of protests and a society that works better for everybody, yes. You don't actually bring that society to the table. That's outside of your power. If anything, you promise that this society will somehow come about if only your demands are met. Kind of like the politicians that might promise almost anything, if only you elected them. > Progressive candidates, like members of the DSA and politicians they endor…

I'm confused, how did we get from "here are a few examples of specific demands" to "the only demand is dismantling the criminal justice system"? There are many demands; not meeting all of them this year is not the same as failure.

FWIW the ballot amendment to eliminate the Minneapolis Police Department had about 61% support, vs 32% opposed, among Minneapolis residents. https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/survey-suggests-su... . These proposals are not as outlandish as you might think, especially among the people who are impacted by them.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#233

Post by [deleted] »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #78
formercoder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve found that most people I speak to can’t accept that most issues are complex shades of gray. It’s all our team or their team based on whatever news channel they subscribe to. No one takes time to dig below the surface and think for themselves.

I think this is a natural, human tendency. Us vs. them. Tribalism. That sort of thing.

[deleted]

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#234

Post by Balgair »

macinjosh wrote: post #127
sudonim wrote: post #58

There’s reason to be skeptical. From a local Portland journalist covering the protests: https://twitter.com/alex_zee/status/1302284883625046016?s=21 “ Not that I want to legitimize this @reason piece, but I have filmed copious moments of ppl throwing things at police/vandalizing bldgs/etc & have never been told I’m not allowed to film. I have never heard of the so-called “IPC.” The lack of sourcing in this story show…

No there isn’t. There is documented video of this happening. It may not happen to every single journalist but that doesn’t mean it is not happening. Antifa is very organized and they specifically look for journalists they do not like.

> Antifa is very organized

Maybe in some places, there may be some groups that seem so. But given the evidence I've seen near me, 'organized' would be too strong a word. They're more 'middle-class white kids looking to get their faces punched', at least around here.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#235

Post by COGlory »

dublinben wrote: post #180
sremani wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently @alex_zee is no objective observer and has participated in disinformation. https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1300617725354504192

Neither is Andy Ngo. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Andy_Ngo

Sure, but that doesn't invalidate the tweet which is factual, not opinion based, and easily verifiable.

Whereas Zee's tweet relies solely on us to trust him.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#236

Post by microtonal »

the-dude wrote: post #217
microtonal wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digital subscriptions of Dutch newspapers have grown steadily: https://www.svdj.nl/de-stand-van-de-nieuwsmedia/digitale-opl... (For non-native speakers, scroll to the first graph.)

You can't compare digital subscriptions with print-subscriptions, your own link even says so. De Telegraaf and het AD alone have lost about 800k subscriptions in the last two decades. And the trend sharpens. https://www.svdj.nl/de-stand-van-de-nieuwsmedia/papier/oplag...

De Telegraaf and het AD alone have lost about 800k subscriptions in the last two decades.

The curves for the other newspapers are far less profound and some of them do really well in digital subscriptions (NRC, Volkskrant, FD). Would be interesting to know what is going on here. Are people interested in right-wing media less inclined to pay for content, are they less in a position to pay for content, or are the traditional right-wing news papers being replaced by other media (if so, which ones?).

At any rate, I stand by my point, which is: there have traditionally been large right-wing media in The Netherlands, but their audience seems to be leaving them. I also agree that there was a void for some time in public broadcasting, which is filled by some contenders, like PowNed and WNL. However, these broadcasting associations do not seem to do well, because they have very few members (25,000 and 50,000 respectively). Even a broadcaster like HUMAN, of which I have absolutely no clue what their profile is, has more members (68,000).

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#237

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #224
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians generally, but Reason specifically, have historically been critical of police and rioters. I don’t think the staff at Reason “aliases” antifa/BLM, having listened to their editors podcast as all this has happened.

I think this article bolsters his point that Reason is trending toward authoritarian efforts. A quick look-up of the article's author shows her media appearances tend to be on authoritarian media outlets. She also has some history of trying to raise hostility against reform movements (eg: MeNeither's support of sex predators).

Trending towards authoritarianism? It seems like the article is reasonably accurate about an under-reported aspect of the protests. Namely the intimidation tactics against reporters by “protesters.”

And it’s written by a reporter that lived in Portland.

Edit: since I can’t respond below - I’m questioning the accuracy cause it seems like people are quick to label things “authoritarian/fascist” when they don’t really resemble that at all. Having watched Nancy Rommelman in interviews, podcasts, etc. I get the sense she’s not that at all. Generally very libertarian, i.e. advocating strong protection of individual rights against violence, etc. That’s how libertarians arrive at criticism of police/rioters. They’re both violating fundamental protections of individuals from violence.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#238

Post by [deleted] »

formercoder wrote: post #226
threatofrain wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone suggests that they think in morally gray manner, doesn't it signal to everyone around them that they're morally suspicious? >"Do you think it's alright that police are getting killed?" > "Well, let's think about the details, as the situation can be complex or even gray..." You might say this is a stupid and sparse example, but well, let's think about it... for many people instinctual morality is their prim…

I’m talking more about making moral judgements without adequate information or analysis. I’m not saying that morality is not absolute.

[deleted]

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#239

Post by pmoriarty »

Nesco wrote: post #89
sneak wrote: post #32

It makes me sad that an institution I used to like and respect, reason.com, seems more and more often to subscribe to the standard (and, taken uncritically, untrue) set pieces of the standard American culture war. This one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical”, and also aliasing “antifa” and “blm” as coterminous. The truth is very different, but I fear that many in their libertaria…

> his one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical” For having met many of them during the Gilets Jaunes demonstration in Paris, it’s not only true but an understatement. In addition everyone of them I talked to was of an abysmal intelligence and seemed to come only to destroy. I completely understand police brutality has I have been gassed, beaten and shot with rubber bullets while to…

"I highly suspect that the government used them to destroy any sympathy towards the protests."

There have been documented cases of police infiltrating protest groups and encouraging violence, and probably many more that happened but have remained secret (because that's not really what the police ever want to talk about).

This history of provocateurs is mostly unknown to the general public, and certainly underappreciated.

Another factor is that pretty much anyone can dress in black and claim to be antifa (or whomever), or just commit violence without any political affiliation or purpose. Yet it's this anonymous non-organization that will get blamed regardless.

Very few of the people pointing fingers will bother to (or even have the capacity to) look beneath the surface to figure out who the violent ones really are. Much simpler to just slap a label on them and take it at face value.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#240

Post by lallysingh »

formercoder wrote: post #40
zaroth wrote: post #19

The mainstream news reporting on Portland (and other regional rioting) got to the point where they were bald-faced lying about peaceful protests standing in front of burning buildings. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that these professional journalists think that their readers can’t understand a nuanced world of gray and need everything reduced to black and white. There can be a concept of “BLM”…

I’ve found that most people I speak to can’t accept that most issues are complex shades of gray. It’s all our team or their team based on whatever news channel they subscribe to. No one takes time to dig below the surface and think for themselves.

People don't like complexity. They want heroes and villains. If the heroes are also nearby (like their local police station) and villains are far away (like Portland), it's far more comfortable.
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