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The Programmer Salary Taboo

thurn.ca

231–240 of 331 posts

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#231
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that when you're hiding salaries you can't really evaluate the market. Really by hiding that information you're giving the salary giver most of the power and those shopping around for a higher salary need to do a lot more work to evaluate how much they're worth on the market. I mean if Joe is doing half the work I'm doing, shouldn't he get paid significantly less? You're kind of attacking this from an…

Does the market really matter if I'm happy with what I'm being paid? That's ultimately the motivation for my argument - in which system are the greatest number of actors likely to be content?

This is my thoughts exactly. I'm happy with my salary because it enables me to live comfortably and purchase the things that I want. What other people make doesn't directly factor into it at all (not withstanding the fact that prices usually follow the average income, which affects my purchasing power).

Comparing incomes and constantly thinking about what you _could_ be making just leads up to never being satisfied with any kind of salary in the long run.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#232

I actually think full transparency on salary could make this nasty issue go away. Post what everyone is making and let people negotiate a fair package. There would be some transitional pain in the first 2 months, and payroll costs might go up 10 percent, but people would be happier in the long run. Why use inaccurate gossip instead of full transparency? What drove up compensation in banking in the 2000s was inaccurat…

Transparency would also level the playing field in terms of negotiations. Whether or not you are a good negotiator should not affect how much you get paid for most types of positions. As it stands, in most companies, negotiation is welcome and if you're savvy, you can get all sorts of perks that someone who is not savvy will be unable to get. I'm a big fan of salary transparency -- the last startup I was a part of pr…

Isn't that what Unions do, effectively negotiating pay and conditions for its members.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living is very complicated. Most software engineers making $100,000 are young, single, don't have kids, and are comfortable with renting. Most software engineers making $200,000 are older and have kids, which means they need larger living spaces and have a strong preference for owning rather than renting. On this alone, you need different conversion factors. Also, the distance/price curve is different for dif…

Unless the salary is commensurate with increased value or output, I see no reason why older SDEs should make more than younger devs. To be clear, there is often great value in older SDEs, but "because they have kids and want a house" is not a reason to pay them more.

[deleted]

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#235

HN needs anon comments. I have specific questions, but not ones I want my name on =)

Make a sockpuppet account.

Yea, people often make throwaways for Ask HN. I'd prefer people doing it less whatever possible, though I know sometimes they are needed (I am not expecting questions about acquisitions to be made non-anonymously at this point for example).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#236
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to CNN's cost of living calculator ( http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.htm... ): $100,000 in Mountain View, CA = $58,302 in Austin, TX = $73,992 in Seattle, WA = $71,306 in Chicago, IL = $61,660 in Cleveland, OH And from a quick skim down any real estate listing for Mountain View, CA I think these numbers might be a bit on the high side.

I just moved from Oklahoma to Tennessee and CNN's housing estimate is way off. It says TN is 20% cheaper and it is actually just the opposite.

Probably depends on where in Oklahoma and Tennessee. I moved from Tulsa to Nashville three years ago and the housing market seems fairly equivalent to me with Nashville being slightly higher (which makes sense with Nashville being larger than Tulsa).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#237
post #8
post #2

I've always wanted to write exactly this blog post. Keeping your salary confidential is great for big companies, but it benefits you in no way. You should be making what your coworkers make. If you make less, you're being fucked, plain and simple. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can remedy the situation. Sadly, some people go their whole careers without doing so. FWIW, my first programming job only paid $…

> only paid $45,000 a year Reading this kind of thing on HN makes me feel ill; my W-2 says $47k. Maybe I need to make some changes.

They offered me more ($55k) on my internship. I really think you should earn more.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#238
post #221

We need to remember "you are not your salary". Comments like "an insulting $60,000" or "only $100,000" makes me shake my head. Your salary is not something you have to brag about.Your worth is not determined by your salary. A developer can create millions of dollars in value. Think how much value DHH created with Rails or Linus with Git and Linux. Or Damien with CouchDB. Remember Steve Jobs salary is $1 a year. Our g…

That is if you have some sort of interest in what you are doing. Either shares in or ownership of the company, enjoying the project you are working on (and hence it can be considered a hobby), or just doing the job for the money so that you can follow your passion outside of work.

Salary isn't everything but it may be key thing keeping you at your job.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#239
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone please shed some light on what would be a good strategy to follow if you were in his position talking to HR, manager, CTO? What's the best way to save yourself once you've realized you're worth nearly double, triple, or quad your current comp pkg?

The easiest way is to just find another offer from another company. You're not "worth" double your current comp if you can't find it somewhere. Then you let them know that you have another offer but would prefer to stay if they can match the other offer. Keep in mind that this happens all the time and is standard procedure in most American and European companies. As long as you act honestly, your boss will probably n…

I think that it works better if you don't say you would prefer to stay. If they want you to stay, they will make the offer anyway.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#240
post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

I've learned an interesting relation regarding salaries myself. It's not about the amount that you can live with, or what you think you need but about appreciation. I was such an idiot earlier: this whole angle was anything but clear to me.

Early in my career I never asked much and I was quite happy with what I got because I didn't spend that much. All my salaries were big enough compared to the previous salary that I didn't even think much about the fairness of it all. Given also that as a programmer I was still enjoying better than the average national salary and still better than my dad.

But eventually I realized that the only tangible way a company can truly appreciate a good employee is biting the bullet and by paying him a bigger compensation.

Even if he doesn't need it.

In the previous job I stayed for five years. Year by year I started to wonder when will they give me a raise: I still liked the job and I was considered a good programmer. I was already approaching the senior status earlier, but they reworked their career plan and bumped seniority forward into the future. Of course, seniority would have meant some standard increase in the salary. It took me those five years to determine my own value and at the end of it, I left at the brink of my five-year review that turned into an exit interview in promptu.

It wasn't about me physically needing more money: it was about me deserving being paid more money for my skills and experience, about my employer actually acknowledging their appreciation towards my contributions.

These days, I enjoy about the double of the average salary in my country. Quite a considerable increase! I still don't need all that money which has allowed me both to voluntarily work part-time and to also invest part of my earnings monthly. But now I feel like finally receiving each month the appreciation I never got in the previous job. Given my skills and experience, I'm being paid much closer to my market value now and that is what matters, eventhough I still live a small life and could easily live on my old salary.

Job markets are like any other markets: the correct price is not the cost of production plus some profit (or employee's cost of living + some more) but an arbitrary agreement between the smallest amount an employee will accept and the highest amount the employer will pay, an agreement that makes both equally happy.

The next time I'll negotiate a salary, I will have a request ready for an amount that is high enough that I won't be in a hurry to get a raise, but which is hopefully within reasonable limits depending on the job. In the case it's too high for the company, I'm willing to scale back the salary along with my monthly hours, linearly.

But my value per hour remains the same. I know my worth now.

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