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Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

keepthescore.co

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Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#231
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both you and TekMoi should probably value your own time higher. The cost savings are great, but once you spend 4 hours on configuring a database server, that'll probably be $200+ worth of your time and, thus, wipe out most of the savings.

I value four hours of my time at considerably more than $200 and the reason I'm able to do that is because I know things like how to configure a database server. But your argument is nonsensical because a one-time investment of time (much less than four hours for me, but I've been doing this for 20 years) can save you several hundred dollars a month. AWS AuroraDB, for instance, (which I also know how to configure, by…

the main issue I have with the DIY mentality is that, for me, it's endless, and even more so, it's an unpaved path, ad-hoc, with few integrated well defined paths. we've got lots of open source software, but the ops of being online is hard fought experience.

* `apt-get install postgres-server` would have worked fine for my needs on my VPS. oh but i need roles, so let's start an ansible playbook. maybe let's tweak some settings. fine, still all short, easy to do.

* ahhh i should probably have backups. how am i going to manage that storage, where is that going to live?

* then i introduce a new feature & my database is running slow. explain query helps, but i also could use some metrics for these boxes, so probably need to start thinking about prometheus & node-exporter, &c.

i am radically in favor of a) personally facing these challenges and b) open-sourcing the operational knowledge & tools for setting up AND OPERATING systems.

yet at the same time i also think spending $171/mo for a year is an exceedingly wonderful option to have on the table. running my own servers is, to me, a lifelong project, something i want to deeply invest in. there's plenty of ways to go about it that aren't so arduous (k8s+postgres-operator+rook+tbd monitoring+tbd directory-services), but that willingness to keep engaging, supporting, maintaining, scaling things can be a very serious concern that extends well past the time it takes to set a database up: it's an ongoing "giving a shit" burden even when (seemingly) working fine.

being willing and able to hack through is great, and i am all for the coallition of the willing who elect to march through, hopefully not getting bogged down along the way. but wow if you are trying to start a business, it sure is nice being able to pay someone to spin up, back up, monitor, scale some services for you.

i hope some day "we" are better at such things, systematically, i hope open source ops helps give us better paths to doing these kind of things easily, safely, observably, resilliently. we're not there yet. but wow, this challenge to me- how we move open source from an older "software" model to an online service model, that empowers people to set up online systems as easily as opening an editor, that's the challenge at the heart of open source today. it's one that needs a lot more effort, a lot more work, such that we have good ways to stand up & keep up a database server.

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#232

During the dotcom days, we hosted sites like this on a home dsl connection on a single desktop machine and got people to pay for that.

Hey, I still do this today for non-revenue-generating services.

Pretty much every bigcorp I've ever worked for has some crucial service on a box under someone's desk...

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#233
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If $171 month is discouraging, let me reassure them. There’s statistically a 95-99%+ chance you’ll never get to 55k monthly users with your app so don’t worry!

Let's leave this kind of snark out of this community. It's comments like this that slippery slope a community from helpful to harmful. You see it each time a reddit community gets too large.

No, what's harmful is "oh, just spend $50,000 on managed Kubernetes to run a Django web app". That costs real time and real money and makes young engineers think that a phpBB forum is impossible with a five-digit AWS bill.

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#234
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 50k MONTHLY users. It's just 3000 a day

And 2.5 per minute

Or 0 per minute and 25,000 per hour for two days a month. Traffic can be bursty; don't assume that X/month means they're getting exactly X/30 per day..

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Literally spending hours trying to figure out how to set things up through hours of Googling doesn't really help that, nor does it promote the "figuring it out" people think it does - its just stumbling upon the right set of commands that let me move past this particular hurdle. That's basically all of software development for your entire career. Never not had a day or a week not like that.

That is true and I recognize the purpose of being a proficient Googler; however my concerns stem out of the idea that learning many of those skills are not taught at all or expected to be learned in situ through programming assignments. Here are examples of what I mean: - An undergraduate Networking/Security course may not provide practice on appropriately salting passwords. It is merely discussed as part of some lar…

Yeah there should be debugging classes, googling classes, and how to orient yourself in a massive, existing codebase classes.

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a penny for every time people write blanket statements of this nature, id be a wealthy man. The list of privatised institutions that perform worse than their publically owned equivalents nations is very long. Passenger rail in US and UK is privately owned and terrible compared to French and Spanish. US broadband is quite poor. US healthcare is much worse value. Private prisons - I dont even know what they we…

Amtrak is owned by the US government. US broadband is run by local monopolies established by government action. US Healthcare is heavily regulated, and grew massively expensive only after regulations were added, and preconditions were excluded. All US prisons have problems. You have any real examples?

> Amtrak is owned by the US government.

Irrelevant. The actual railroads are private, and Amtrak gets shafted. Look at the state of US passenger railways, and compare them to trains in France or Spain. All countries with successful passenger rail have them public.

You will find find same pattern for all examples given.

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#238
post #37
post #12

It always makes my head dizzle when I read and hear how much people manage to bloat their stack because they think they need to "scale". I have web applications running that reliably serve 50k users per day and cost me $10/month, running on a single, cheap VPS.

I'v added this paragraph to the article: the servers are oversized for the load we're currently seeing. The reason for that is that we tried to solve a production issue by increasing the server specs. It didn't solve the problem, and now we can't down-size the servers without re-provisioning them ️.

What's the problem with reprovisioning? Don't you have two that you're switching between?

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#239
post #13
post #6

Nice writeup! Always appreciate transparency with these sorts of things, as someone who writes a lot of tiny personal projects and sometimes wonders how much I'd have to invest if they ever actually gained any traction. Congrats on having so many users, and good luck on monetization. For the server instances, I can't imagine 4 CPUs/8 gigs RAM is really needed 24/7, but can imagine it being needed in bursts, and I ass…

Unlike AWS GCP has fewer options and I would argue nothing would fit out of the box. App engine is a PaaS that has various limitations and constraints that can take significant amounts of dev time and customer support time to get through. Spot instances require ops work, as would something like GKE combined with horizontal autoscaling via kubernetes. Their best bet would be to identify hot paths in the code base and…

> App engine is a PaaS that has various limitations and constraints that can take significant amounts of dev time and customer support time to get through

What limitations/constraints of App Engine have you run into?

Re: Costs of running a Python webapp for 55k monthly users

#240
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both you and TekMoi should probably value your own time higher. The cost savings are great, but once you spend 4 hours on configuring a database server, that'll probably be $200+ worth of your time and, thus, wipe out most of the savings.

It doesn’t cost anything to spend 4 hours of your time doing anything, so it doesn’t really wipe out any savings. Reducing a bill from $400 month to $200 is real money, not some theoretical time/value judgement. And, as others have mentioned, there is enormous value in knowing how to operate on a fairly lean tech stack. It makes it so much simpler to scale effectively while keeping costs down.

This is only true, if you do not value your free time. In your example, you've spent 4h to save 200$, so your work was worth 50$/hour. A freelancer with a 100$/hour rate might do 2 hours of work instead, spend the money, and gain 2 hours of free time.

There are other factors of course, but in general, many people come up with a rate for their own free time (which is often higher than the actual rate they charge clients)

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