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Level 3 Global Outage

puck.nether.net

231–240 of 393 posts

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#231
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this infrastructure is at an uncanny intersection of technology, business and politics. To learn the technical aspect of it, you can follow any network engineering certification materials or resources that delve into dynamic routing protocols, notably BGP. Inter-ISP networking is nothing but setting up BGP sessions and filters at the technical level. Why you set these up, and under what conditions is a…

Judging by other comments, it seems there's a space to fill this niche with a series of blog articles or a book, if you're that sort of person.

There are plenty of presentations out there. See nanog, ripe.

The books are meh because they're not written by operators. They're more academic and dated.

Plenty of clueful folks on the right IRC channels.

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#232
post #213
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like one of those cases where solving a “little” issue would actually require rearchitecting the entire system. Namely, in this case, it seems like the “right thing” is for games to not derive their ELO contributions from pure win/loss/draw scorings at all, but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing fo…

> but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing for whatever reason Except for the obvious positions that no one serious would even play, there is no agreed-upon way of calculating who has an advantage in chess like that. One man's terrible mobility and probable blunder is another's brilliant stratagem.

Hm, you’re right; guess I was thinking in terms of how this would apply to Go, where it’d be as simple as counting territory.

Still, just to spitball: one “obvious” approach, at least in our modern world where technology is an inextricable part of the game, would be to ask a chess-computer: “given that both players play optimally from now on, what would be the likelihood of each player winning from this starting board position?” The situations where this answer is hard/impossible to calculate (i.e. estimations close to the beginning of a match) are exactly the situations where the ELO contribution should be minuscule anyway, because the match didn’t contribute much to tightening the confidence interval of the skill gap between the players.

Of course, players don’t play optimally. I suspect that, given GPT-3 and the like, we’ll soon be able to train chess-computers to mimic specific players’ play-styles and seeming limits of knowledge (insofar as those are subsets of the chess-computer’s own capabilities, that it’s constraining its play to.) At that point, we might actually be able to ask the more interesting question: “given these two player-models and this board position, in what percentage of evolutions from this position does player-model A win?”

Interestingly, you could ask that question with the board position being the initial one, and thus end up with automatically-computed betting odds based on the players’ last-known skill (which would be strictly better than ELO as a prediction on how well an individual pair of players would do when facing off; and therefore could, in theory, be used as a replacement for ELO in determining who “should” be playing whom. You’d need an HPC cluster to generate that ladder, but it’d be theoretically possible, and that’s interesting.)

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#233
post #213
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like one of those cases where solving a “little” issue would actually require rearchitecting the entire system. Namely, in this case, it seems like the “right thing” is for games to not derive their ELO contributions from pure win/loss/draw scorings at all, but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing fo…

> but rather for games to be converted into ELO contributions by how far ahead one player was over the other at the point when both players stopped playing for whatever reason Except for the obvious positions that no one serious would even play, there is no agreed-upon way of calculating who has an advantage in chess like that. One man's terrible mobility and probable blunder is another's brilliant stratagem.

[deleted]

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes .... There was a huge AT&T outage in 1990 that cut off most US long distance telephony (which was, at the time, mostly "everything not within the same area code"). It was a bug. It wasn't a reconvergence event, but it was a distant cousin: Something would cause a crash; exchanges would offload that something to other exchanges, causing them to crash -- but with enough time for th…

There was something similar a few years ago on a large US mobile network. You could watch the ‘storm’ rolling across the map. Fascinating stuff

Are you referring to CenturyLink’s 37-hour, nationwide outage?

> In this instance, the malformed packets [Ethernet frames?] included fragments of valid network management packets that are typically generated. Each malformed packet shared four attributes that contributed to the outage: 1) a broadcast destination address, meaning that the packet was directed to be sent to all connected devices; 2) a valid header and valid checksum; 3) no expiration time, meaning that the packet would not be dropped for being created too long ago; and 4) a size larger than 64 bytes.

* https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/08/centu...

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes .... There was a huge AT&T outage in 1990 that cut off most US long distance telephony (which was, at the time, mostly "everything not within the same area code"). It was a bug. It wasn't a reconvergence event, but it was a distant cousin: Something would cause a crash; exchanges would offload that something to other exchanges, causing them to crash -- but with enough time for th…

Indeed. In 2018 an Erlang telco software did break, bringing down the UK and Japan.

If memory serves that also involved an expired certificate

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#236

Has anyone any good resources for learning more about the "internet-level" infrastructure affected today and how global networks are connected?

Don't forget Neal Stephenson's classic, "Mother Earth, Mother Board." 25 years old but still relevant.

https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#237
post #225

How the xxxx did it take CenturyLink/Level3 like 3-4 hours to fix this problem? Again ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24322988 ) not a network engineer, but it seemed like their routers actively stopped other networks from working around the problem since L3 would still keep pushing other networks' old routes, even after those networks tried to stop that. Also: BGP probably needs to redesigned from the ground…

> Also: BGP probably needs to redesigned from the ground up by software engineers with experience from designing systems that can remain working with hostile actors.

This has been attempted a number of times, but this is a political problem, not a technical problem: there's no single agreed source of truth for routing policy.

A lot of US Internet providers won't even sign up for ARIN IRR, or even move their legacy space to a RIR - so there isn't even any technical way of figuring out address space ownership and cryptographic trust (ie. via RPKI). Hell, some non-RIR IRRs (like irr.net) are pretty much the fanfiction.net equivalent of IRRs, with anyone being able to write any record about ownership, without any practical verification (just have to pay a fee for write access). And for some address space, these IRRs are the only information about ownership and policy that exists.

Without even knowing for sure who a given block belongs to, or who's allowed to announce it, or where, how do you want to fix any issues with a new dynamic routing protocol?

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#238
post #208

Has anyone any good resources for learning more about the "internet-level" infrastructure affected today and how global networks are connected?

Unfortunately, this infrastructure is at an uncanny intersection of technology, business and politics. To learn the technical aspect of it, you can follow any network engineering certification materials or resources that delve into dynamic routing protocols, notably BGP. Inter-ISP networking is nothing but setting up BGP sessions and filters at the technical level. Why you set these up, and under what conditions is a…

What resources can I follow to start a non-profit ISP? I want to start one in my hometown for students who couldn't afford internet to join online classes.

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#239

Has anyone any good resources for learning more about the "internet-level" infrastructure affected today and how global networks are connected?

It likely has some inaccurate info as I'm not a network engineer, but I gave a talk about BGP (with a history, protocol overview, and information on how it fails using real world examples) at Radical Networks last year. https://livestream.com/internetsociety/radnets19/videos/1980...

I tried to make it accessible to those who have only a basic understanding of home networking. Assuming you know what a router is and what an ISP is, you should be able to to ingest it without needing to know crazy jargon.

Re: Level 3 Global Outage

#240
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this infrastructure is at an uncanny intersection of technology, business and politics. To learn the technical aspect of it, you can follow any network engineering certification materials or resources that delve into dynamic routing protocols, notably BGP. Inter-ISP networking is nothing but setting up BGP sessions and filters at the technical level. Why you set these up, and under what conditions is a…

What resources can I follow to start a non-profit ISP? I want to start one in my hometown for students who couldn't afford internet to join online classes.

There's a bunch of guidelines for starting a (W)ISP depending on your region.
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