Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even worse than undiscoverable features are land mine features, where some subtle gesture triggers a wild and unwanted mode change. Extra credit if the mode change is hard to get out of.
There's a windows feature like this which I hate with a passion. If you grab a window and shake it side to side, it minimizes all open windows... So sometimes I'll grab a window to move to my left monitor, decide instead I want it on the right one, and suddenly everything is gone and I now need to go open every single window one at a time. It even took me months to understand that the shaking was what caused it. I wo…
Scrollbar Blindness
231–240 of 575 posts
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#232If you read between the lines, you should understand that the root cause of issue is the macOS developer monoculture. All you need is one Windows or Linux-based developer in your team to catch those kind of issues. But so many dev teams are macOS-only those days, whereas, apart from US and 2-3 other rich countries, 80%+ or even more of actual desktop users are Windows-based. (There are many other problems with macOS…
> US-based devs: outside of your country (that is, >95% of humanity), most people do not have a Mac, an iPhone, nor use MM/DD/YYYY dates and 12-hour clock. This is an unsubstantiated claim, why bring up and bundle the entire United States to support your claim? I was with you until this.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#233I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…
Here's a link for something I use on such news and blog sites: https://alisdair.mcdiarmid.org/kill-sticky-headers/ I works a surprising amount of the time!
And for Nuke Overdrive mode, add a check for position: sticky, i.e.
(function () {
var elpos,i, elements = document.querySelectorAll('body *');
for (i = 0; i Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#234Really, am I the only person here who can't understand the complaints on hiding scrollbars? I do agree with a lot of things that resonates HN, but this is one thing that I have never understood. Stop complaining about discoverability, everyone that knows how to browse the web knows how to scroll. It's like worrying whether the user will know how to use a mouse when you're designing a web page. Scrolling is not someth…
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't think of a reason for scrollbars to exist in the first place. You always have a physical way to scroll. If a user doesn't know how to scroll, it's a problem with the device, not your software. The only purpose of the scroll bar is to show your current position in the page, which doesn't require persistence.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Online isn't real-life. You can test in a VM, but it will never be the same as testing on actual hardware. Ths context is that testing is a solved problem. You are taking specific factual examples I wrote and attempting to debunk them with a general statement that is in agreement with what I wrote. Testing scrollbards can absolutely be tested inside a VM. Pretending that native hardware is needed to cover 99% of th…
> Ths context is that testing is a solved problem. The only problem that is solved is running multiple browsers in VMs in a cloud. Everything else is anyone's guess. To come up with an automated test for the problem in the OP you have to be a) aware of the problem and b) have a way to test that scrollbars do/don't appear. Good luck with that.
That false hyperbole. Just because you do not know something, that doesn't mean that nobody else does.
> To come up with an automated test for the problem in the OP you have to be a) aware of the problem and b) have a way to test that scrollbars do/don't appear. Good luck with that.
No luck is needed, just tests. You may not realize, but test frameworks already exist for testing the screen for the presence of UI elements. That is how dialog boxes are clicked in tests. This is literally solved.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#236Solution: web developers should change how they do CSS to accommodate Apple.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please don't blame people for wanting when it is "the design" department that forces these changes on people. How about people (designers) start thinking about their users and some some strict adherence to someone else's opinion about Material Design. I hope we see Material Design like we see touch screens in vehicles. An embarrassing mistake at best and potentially fatal at worst. Design should always serve the user…
I think we may be seeing an organizational issue at work. The job of a design department is to produce design. If there isn't enough new stuff to design, they will redesign old stuff. This serves to advance the critical goal to the design department of justifying their continued existence. The number of designers who will march up to their VP and boldly declare that all the company's apps are just fine and don't need…
Granted, the developer side of the story might happen as well but I'm guessing not that much (all the dev teams I've worked in saw an overloaded pipeline of work so it is very hard for me to imagine otherwise)
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#238I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…
For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features You don't even have to be elderly. The 20-somethings in the office (pre-pandemic) had no idea that on an inconsistent smattering of Apple apps, if you pull down, a hidden search bar magically appears. How did that conversation go? Dev: Where do you want the search bar to go? Designer: Put it somewhere that no one will ever see it, or…
Over time, they started hiding it by default and require you to scroll up to access it.
I think that, at a general level, this principle of development is reasonable: things that used to require being extremely explicit can become more implicit over time as users become adapted to it. Computers used to feature tons of skeuomorphic design to make it obvious what everything was (so you could think about your computer with the same lens as you thought about your desk, for instance), and now we've mostly done away with that because the vast majority of users don't need it.
Where Apple fails in this regard is two things, I think:
1. They assume prior familiarity among groups who won't have it.
2. They do not leave any affordances to even suggest the presence of something hidden for those who won't know it (or have forgotten).
For the scroll bar issue, I think they could introduce an affordance in the form of, say, a couple small horizontal bars at the top of the page that kind of indicate "you can pull down on this". While early versions of this same design were pretty large and could be considered intrusive, I think users are familiar enough with the "tactile" touchscreen elements that we could develop a smaller version to use for these things.
---
Your point in general still stands, though. Apple has become more and more egregious about this over time. Things used to be very discoverable, and now there's tons of hidden functionality in most of their apps (both mobile and desktop). I think they've succumbed to more feature creep over the past couple of decades than they want to admit.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#239I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…
I changed the setting to Mac OS always shows scroll bars, but I have no idea how someone thought hiding them was a good idea.
Re: Scrollbar Blindness
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even worse than undiscoverable features are land mine features, where some subtle gesture triggers a wild and unwanted mode change. Extra credit if the mode change is hard to get out of.
There's a windows feature like this which I hate with a passion. If you grab a window and shake it side to side, it minimizes all open windows... So sometimes I'll grab a window to move to my left monitor, decide instead I want it on the right one, and suddenly everything is gone and I now need to go open every single window one at a time. It even took me months to understand that the shaking was what caused it. I wo…
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced
set DisallowShaking dword to 1