ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#231

Post by autocorr » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

Timothee wrote: post #115

billman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best keyboard I can think of is one that tells me to get my butt out of the chair and go for a walk every two hours.

You can probably make that happen with the QMK firmware: make the whole thing stop two hours after being plugged in. Or have a key sequence to restart the timer. (so that you don't have to unplug and plug it all the time) That'd be an interesting feature honestly.

The keyboard in the submitted post comes with a buzzer built-in. I think they had one in the Planck that beeped when it turned on or connected to bluetooth or something. So you could program QMK to do this almost certainly! :)

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#232

Post by johnm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

wy35 wrote: post #202

johnm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you only use the Advantage at home/work? I.e., what do you do when you're traveling (or just using your laptop away from you desk)?

I don't bother traveling with the Advantage2 at all... it's a bit too big to do that comfortably. I find it pretty easy to switch between laptop keyboard and Advantage2, so no problems there. So the Advantage2 remains on my desk while I just use my laptop's keyboard for meetings/on-the-go. I think the layouts are so different, my brain processes them separately.

Indeed. I started with the original Advantage a long time ago. After getting used to it, switching back and forth with the laptop keyboards doesn't scramble my brain.

But making the jump to the modern, smaller splits + multiple layers, etc. is another huge jump in ergonomics... and they are portable enough to travel with.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#233

Post by nonbirithm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

retzkek wrote: post #200

nonbirithm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) […

I understand, I've used a 40% layout (Poker II) and I liked the keyfeel and portability. I did like typing on it way more than using my laptop's keyboard. I liked everything about it except the fact that I ended up trying to use the arrow or function keys or numpad all the time for things like I used to with my larger keyboards (gamedev), get tired of mispressing them over and over, and end up going back to a full layout keyboard. (I'm typing this on a Filco Majestouch.) If I'm understanding the links correctly the Atreus doesn't even have a number row, which at least the Poker had.

Maybe I just haven't fully internalized the "you'll get used to it after some time" part yet. Maybe the "some time" part is actually around six months of continuous usage instead of about three. I'm not sure.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#234

Post by nonbirithm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:58 PM UTC

MivLives wrote: post #220

nonbirithm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

I think the reason for lack of f keys is a two fold: 1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs. 2. One of the things I've seen complai…

Thanks for the details, that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a bit too grounded in my thought process from using full key layouts all the time. I guess this means if I'm wanting to go more ergonomic while still staying in the mechanical keyboard sphere then I really would just have to get used to macros, because having one key serve multiple purposes means needing less space for keys to be socketed, meaning less hand movement, meaning less hand strain.

Also, a lot of people seem to have macropads or separate numpads and use them for basically the exact same purpose I'm currently using the function keys for, so that could be a good compromise if I still want something like the Ergodox with a split layout.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#235

Post by cuddlybacon » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:09 AM UTC

MivLives wrote: post #225

cuddlybacon wrote: post #168

This is interesting. I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true. Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like: * The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the…

There's defiantly layouts that have been made with the thumb buttons moved in. The Iris[1] or Corne[2] for example. Though you're now in custom keyboard territory which means you're either building it yourself, or finding a person/company to assemble it for you. [1] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg [2] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg

Mhm. Mhm.

I ended up looking at the options in https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards based on your comment. I noticed all the ones that moved the thumb cluster in, also don't have the bottom row that the ergodox does.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#236

Post by johnm » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:22 AM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #193

I am at the point where I like to move my fingers minimally and with very low force required. I have an Apple wireless keyboard and I love the switches. Even my 2018 15" MBP is great. I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers: * Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I…

I don't know of one that exactly fits your constraints. But there are so many and more being created all the time. Trying asking on https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/

In terms of the tall versus short keys... Look for one that you can get/build with either Kailh low profile "chocs" or their even lower profile "choc mini" switches. The "linear" versions will be most like the feel of the Apple keyboards.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#237

Post by least » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

ianhowson wrote: post #229

least wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Kinesis Advantage 2 does not use rubber dome switches for its function. They are cherry ml switches.

Cherry ML are terrible. I'd prefer rubber domes.

For what it's worth, I don't find the ML switches on my Advantage 2 nor the rubber domes on my Advantage 1 particularly offensive; if you are using the function keys constantly then your viewpoint might differ.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#238

Post by least » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:33 AM UTC

yepguy wrote: post #209

Stop making split keyboards! You don't need 2 separate pieces; all you really need are slightly angled keys away from the center. See the Truly Ergonomic keyboard[1] for example. That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards. [1]: https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/

There's room in the world for both designs; it's not really a zero sum game (unless you consider that people designing truly split keyboards would otherwise spend their time designing angled keyboards). Split keyboards can help accommodate people with different body types from yourself. I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and it is ever so slightly too narrow for what i'd prefer for comfort with regards to my shoulders. When a keyboard is truly split you can adjust each side to be placed where it is best for you.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#239

Post by least » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #171

_ink_ wrote: post #67

Is there a similar keyboard in the $100 range? I do not need changeable keyswitches or an ARM processor in my keyboard. Currently I have the Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 and I am quite happy with that. I just do not need a num block and think a split keyboard is easier for travelling. Are there any good split keyboards with hand rests in the $100 range?

You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but now I can't live without it. I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.

There is such a device. Hasu's USB-USB converter works with qmk/tmk and will work with (almost) any keyboard.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0

https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#240

Post by StavrosK » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

least wrote: post #239

StavrosK wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but now I can't live without it. I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.

There is such a device. Hasu's USB-USB converter works with qmk/tmk and will work with (almost) any keyboard. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0 https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...

That looks great, thanks!