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My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

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Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#231
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less debatable if the libraries they partner with have records showing that said books were on the stacks behind locked doors and that they used these records to change the number of each title that can be loaned out. But it is still a pretty big shift in "how to count" that maybe would have gone over better if discussed first. But let's be realistic, the publishers would have done the same thing. They do it ove…

> I also think copyrights should last like 20-30 years tops Seriously, I can't fathom why anyone would say that copyright should last longer than patents

One reason I consider for that is that technical progress and inventions are much more valuable and therefore need to be a public good sooner.

I don't mind disney having copyright on mickey mouse for 100 years. I do mind locking away a promising technology for 50.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#232
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm an educator and I want to select parts of a work to present in class, usually I'd want to view the whole work and select the pieces from that. That's how it'd work when using a traditional library. Is this basically what they are suggesting here? They are supplying the copies, and it's up to the users whether or not they break the law from there?

> If I'm an educator and I want to select parts of a work to present in class, usually I'd want to view the whole work and select the pieces from that. That's how it'd work when using a traditional library. > Is this basically what they are suggesting here? They are supplying the copies, and it's up to the users whether or not they break the law from there? Copyright doesn't work like that - the party who makes the c…

> Copyright doesn't work like that - the party who makes the copy is the one who does the infringing.

Yes I know. It definitely makes sense in most cases. If I'm handing out books in a park then people should be able to assume they aren't breaking the law by taking a copy.

Maybe the law needs an update for this concept of a repository. Where they can keep a catalogue of everything regardless of copyright but the requester bears the clearly marked and advertised burden of satisfying the copyright rules once they ask.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#233
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with that person (poster?). But taken to the extreme it could also be an endorsement for Communism or something like it too, but I don't think it's usually healthy to take things to the extreme. I prefer a middle ground and the original intent (at least as much as is commonly told) around copyright, trade secrets, and patents seemed to be a relatively healthy take on that even if it now needs an upda…

> I'm not familiar with that person (poster?). But taken to the extreme it could also be an endorsement for Communism or something like it too I think this example might serve: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22250260

I see. Well that seems to mostly talk about physical property. That makes sense - there is one thing, it takes effort to make more, and only one person can have it at a time.

Many people have a problem with equating "theft" to intellectual property since the concept doesn't map directly. If I make a dining table, I shouldn't have to hand it over to my country after a "limited" time (life of the creator plus 70 years now, isn't it?). But perhaps other people should be able to create similar looking tables after a while, to help advance any new techniques or artistic styles used. Ideas can be used while still belonging to the creator.

If I try to block that cultural evolution with a license of some kind, I think I'm doing a disservice to the culture that helped me create the table.

Anyway, does that still relate to the article? Probably not, I was replying more to the concept that everything is made in isolation so full control should be kept. As a society we already decided that doesn't always apply to IP which books are definitely part of. If we aren't careful in separating the concepts of products and ideas, then we get tractors we aren't allowed to fix.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#234
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I'm an educator and I want to select parts of a work to present in class, usually I'd want to view the whole work and select the pieces from that. That's how it'd work when using a traditional library. > Is this basically what they are suggesting here? They are supplying the copies, and it's up to the users whether or not they break the law from there? Copyright doesn't work like that - the party who makes the c…

> Copyright doesn't work like that - the party who makes the copy is the one who does the infringing. Yes I know. It definitely makes sense in most cases. If I'm handing out books in a park then people should be able to assume they aren't breaking the law by taking a copy. Maybe the law needs an update for this concept of a repository. Where they can keep a catalogue of everything regardless of copyright but the requ…

> Maybe the law needs an update for this concept of a repository. Where they can keep a catalogue of everything regardless of copyright but the requester bears the clearly marked and advertised burden of satisfying the copyright rules once they ask.

I don't understand why this would be a good idea. Perhaps you could elaborate?

We already have libraries that operate just fine under the current set of rules. I think controlled digital lending is probably a good idea and something that should get more legal support, however.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#235
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copyright doesn't work like that - the party who makes the copy is the one who does the infringing. Yes I know. It definitely makes sense in most cases. If I'm handing out books in a park then people should be able to assume they aren't breaking the law by taking a copy. Maybe the law needs an update for this concept of a repository. Where they can keep a catalogue of everything regardless of copyright but the requ…

> Maybe the law needs an update for this concept of a repository. Where they can keep a catalogue of everything regardless of copyright but the requester bears the clearly marked and advertised burden of satisfying the copyright rules once they ask. I don't understand why this would be a good idea. Perhaps you could elaborate? We already have libraries that operate just fine under the current set of rules. I think co…

> controlled digital lending

That's pretty much what I was suggesting, mentioning copyright rules wrt fair use etc.

Does it make sense that a library has 3 digital copies of a book so that only 2 readers and a single teacher can check it out at once, with other teachers waiting for a spare copy for lesson preparation? Some update or codification based on the status of the borrower might be useful.

I think it makes sense for society to have unlimited copies available for teachers, journalists, etc as necessary to perform their roles. So this would mean some borrowers can borrow regardless of the stock on hand, while others have to wait in line.

The logical extension of this is we could have titles where the library has paid nothing or a nominal bulk fee, meaning regular users cannot check out copies but the above users could.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#236
post #201
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew that! And I have no problem with it, since EFF are upfront about what the money is for (and are probably better/more rational about the battles they pick)

But... EFF also picked this battle. Honestly, you may be able to split it between them and ultimately do more good than the sum of the halves.

So they did! However I can expect that if the odds turn bad, they won't waste money grasping at straws. If IA decides to pull another similar stunt, EFF probably won't defend them there. More importantly, I am not enabling those stunts with my support and my money, at least until this one is resolved.

Of course I do hope EFF gets them acquited somehow, but I don't like those odds (and they probably didn't either and charged ahead regardless, which is my problem).

I would love to "split the halves" like you said, and would if I had any assurance that the half they get supports things like the WayBack machine. However for all I know, they'll just use it to make the whole Netflix catalogue available for free next month. I guess what I'm trying to say is that their management lost my trust.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#237
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we're a bit off topic at this point but I think the only glaring structural issue is the winner takes all voting. > electoral collage I'd disagree that the US got this wrong; it made a lot of sense historically. These days it arguably introduces some unnecessary inefficiency into the process but I don't think that really matters in practice. The primary objection seems to be that it doesn't reflect the popula…

EC made sense historically solely because that was the only way the Constitution was getting ratified by small states and slave states. As it was, small states wanted to retain the Articles of Confederation approach (one vote per state); and slave states wanted to count the entirety of their population for the purposes of representation, without letting slaves vote. EC was what they hammered out as a compromise, beca…

Due to the nature of HN I have no idea if you'll actually see a response at this point, but ...

You said it yourself. Smaller states can amend the constitution while representing a minority of the population. (I didn't do the math on that but it sounds about right.) So why would they ever agree to directly proportional representation? It's not in their best interests!

Even today, proportional representation is bound to dissatisfy the less populous states whose interests would end up dwarfed by the majority of the population. Meanwhile the more populous states would hardly take well to a fixed number of votes per state. Applying one method to the house and the other to the senate makes perfect sense since bills have to pass both. The problem is that it's not clear how to apply such an arrangement to an election (the obvious schemes would be far too cumbersome). The electoral college seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

(Of course the house is no longer adjusted IIRC, so it's not really proportional representation either. Arguably the states should wield far more power and the feds far less - that would shift attention much closer to home for the majority of issues.)

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#238
Glad to hear directly from Mr. Kahle on this topic and fully support IA's mission to buy, preserve, and lend digital books and similar materials.

Seems Hachette, Harpercollins, Wiley, Penguin Random House have not fully considered the mass boycott they are inviting by their petty, greedy lawsuit.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#239
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EC made sense historically solely because that was the only way the Constitution was getting ratified by small states and slave states. As it was, small states wanted to retain the Articles of Confederation approach (one vote per state); and slave states wanted to count the entirety of their population for the purposes of representation, without letting slaves vote. EC was what they hammered out as a compromise, beca…

Due to the nature of HN I have no idea if you'll actually see a response at this point, but ... You said it yourself. Smaller states can amend the constitution while representing a minority of the population. (I didn't do the math on that but it sounds about right.) So why would they ever agree to directly proportional representation? It's not in their best interests! Even today, proportional representation is bound…

You should ask yourself the opposite question: why should the large states tolerate lack of proportional representation indefinitely, given that it's not in their best interests? And the thing is, if large states find that the present arrangement stymies their interests too much (which is increasingly the case due to polarization on the federal level), and there's no legal way out of that bind, they can set legalities aside. By virtue of their sheer size, if they choose to openly conflict with the smaller states over this, the latter would lose. That's why it's really up to the smaller states to continuously ensure that the compromise doesn't become too unreasonable - if it breaks down, they will be entirely at the mercy of large states, with the latter having no particular reason to feel merciful.

The Founders warned about this, by the way. This particular bit from the Federalist Papers (#22) was explaining why keeping the Articles of Confederation as they were was no longer tenable. But it's equally applicable to the Senate and EC as they exist today.

"Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Deleware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. Sophistry may reply, that sovereigns are equal, and that a majority of the votes of the States will be a majority of confederated America. But this kind of logical legerdemain will never counteract the plain suggestions of justice and common-sense. It may happen that this majority of States is a small minority of the people of America; and two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third. The larger States would after a while revolt from the idea of receiving the law from the smaller. To acquiesce in such a privation of their due importance in the political scale, would be not merely to be insensible to the love of power, but even to sacrifice the desire of equality. It is neither rational to expect the first, nor just to require the last. The smaller States, considering how peculiarly their safety and welfare depend on union, ought readily to renounce a pretension which, if not relinquished, would prove fatal to its duration."

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to the nature of HN I have no idea if you'll actually see a response at this point, but ... You said it yourself. Smaller states can amend the constitution while representing a minority of the population. (I didn't do the math on that but it sounds about right.) So why would they ever agree to directly proportional representation? It's not in their best interests! Even today, proportional representation is bound…

You should ask yourself the opposite question: why should the large states tolerate lack of proportional representation indefinitely, given that it's not in their best interests? And the thing is, if large states find that the present arrangement stymies their interests too much (which is increasingly the case due to polarization on the federal level), and there's no legal way out of that bind, they can set legalitie…

I agree that equal representation isn't in the best interests of the more populous states. The problem is that there's a fundamental tension here. Regardless of differences in population size, it's not reasonable for the legal system in a less populous state (say Idaho) to be dominated by the interests of those in a more populous one (say California). Neither is the reverse acceptable (for Idaho's interests to dominate California's). Short of somehow enforcing an equal population distribution across all the states a simple solution just doesn't exist. To that end, the original intent behind the house and senate is an elegant compromise.

As a matter of principle government should be as local as possible so as to minimize such concerns. Even without bringing population size into it, it doesn't seem reasonable to be subject to the whims of others across such vast distances. Too much is done at the federal level; states such as California, Texas, and Alaska are already far too large from a governance perspective.

> The smaller States, considering how peculiarly their safety and welfare depend on union, ought readily to renounce a pretension which, if not relinquished, would prove fatal to its duration.

This is the one line of argument that I do buy, but I think it will always be a fairly subjective balancing act at the federal level.

Honestly I strongly suspect that eliminating the interstate commerce clause and outright banning simple plurality voting schemes in political contexts at all levels would resolve most of the currently perceived political dysfunctions.

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