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Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

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Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#231

Post by ferest »

enitihas wrote: post #79
ahelwer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good analysis. You aren't seeing a constant drumbeat of bad China news because the US suddenly cares very deeply about Muslim lives - otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about India, for example. China threatens the US' global hegemony. To the extent people in power care about China's political system, it is used to rope in liberals to an anti-China stance and manufacture consent for various measures again…

The comparison with India is wrong, or you don't understand the scale of what is happening in China. For starters, India is not re-educating anyone.

i doubt you understand the "fact" you are talking about in person, rather than from some "news".

India is not re-educating anyone, but rules out muslim from citizenship? Not even mention the caste system, which is way worse than the color discrimination in US. When India became the 2nd biggest power in the world, all these will become target

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#232

Post by georgespencer »

simion314 wrote: post #173
georgespencer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good example of the kinds of tradeoffs which must be made at the highest levels of public service. > Doesn't that mean the UK is willingly under national security risk for 7 years? No, and I'll come on to why in a second. Huawei, just like any Chinese corporation operating overseas, is an attack vector for intelligence gathering. Anyone presenting a counter-argument to this is either a shill for the Chinese…

>That's newsworthy because it's unusual: western states are typically limited to publicly lobbying their corporations for backdoor access, or working around things like end-to-end encryption Isn't this contradicted by secret courts approving NAS warrants, loopholes like meta-data can is legal to collect, digital data is considered different that data you have on paper in your home etc. If CIA, NSA has some judge appr…

This is why the free press and personal liberty are vital components of most western civilisations: they act as a release valve for the sort of behaviours you talk about.

What you are broadly driving at is the necessity for many areas of intelligence gathering and espionage to be invisible to the public eye. There is necessarily a strong tradition of civilian oversight of intelligence agencies in nearly every democracy. For example, in the UK, domestic intelligence is overseen by the Home Secretary, the Intelligence and Security Parliamentary Committee, and the Investigatory Powers Tribunal.

Needless to say, a free press, whistleblowers, and civilian oversight do not exist in China.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#233

Post by enitihas »

ferest wrote: post #231
enitihas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison with India is wrong, or you don't understand the scale of what is happening in China. For starters, India is not re-educating anyone.

i doubt you understand the "fact" you are talking about in person, rather than from some "news". India is not re-educating anyone, but rules out muslim from citizenship? Not even mention the caste system, which is way worse than the color discrimination in US. When India became the 2nd biggest power in the world, all these will become target

Your arguments lack context. India isn't ruling out Muslims from citizenship. While the CAA is a very bad step forward, and has several problems, it is about what criteria satisfying refugees are available for quick citizenship, and doesn't apply to citizens of the country. India is certainly not running anything close to the camps China is running for Uyighurs.

India is actively trying to fix disparities caused by the caste system. It took the US 200 years to get civil rights, India had affirmative action from day one, and one of the biggest examples of affirmative action at that. The caste system is horrendous, but social change can never be brought so quickly ( atleast in a democratic way, we certainly don't want Stalin or Mao style quick changes)

The caste system, while bad, isn't in any way worse than color discrimination in the US. To quote just one example, India has very strong laws against caste based violence.

India has it's own shares of issues, but it's still an order of magnitude better than the Chinese Government.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#234

Post by ferest »

HideousKojima wrote: post #175
free_rms wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're understating the human rights impact of going from third world to first world living standards. You like having your teeth?

No, I'm saying that similar countries were able to lift their populations out of poverty without creating concentration camps for millions of political dissidents and religious minorities in the process. China's economic success isn't tied to its authoritarian regime, and it's actually pretty easy to argue that they would have lifted even more of their population out of poverty even faster if they hadn't had harebrai…

Lifting 100 millions people out of poverty is totally different from lifting 1 millions people out of poverty. Moving a car involves much more engineering than moving a carpet.

If they haven't done great leap forward and cultural revolution it would be better, that is true. But by "abandoning all communist policies and began liberalizing markets", not all countries see economic success, ukraine, iraq and all recent "liberated" countries, and russian living quality in 90s was even worse than their late 80s.

And ironically enough, the fast developing era of taiwan, south korea, by today's standard, are not under any form of democracy.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#235

Post by mrbonner »

It is increasingly appears that the CCP government wants to confront every countries at the same time. First, I thought this was just the power struggle/grab between US-CCP economically. Then, it spread to the political issues like the South China sea claims which pisses off Viet Nam, The Philippines , Taiwan. The CCP even manages to engage India into its territorial issue resulted in sanction from Indian gov. In the north-east side, the CCP is irritating Japan to a point Japan is considering ramping up its army.

If the CCP wants conflicts at least it needs to find allies, right? So why then it tries to piss off just about every countries it's surrounded by?

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#236

Post by rashkov »

free_rms wrote: post #227
rashkov wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has certainly lost a lot of moral standing, and yes it makes it harder to criticize others, and it strengthens autocratic hands abroad to be able to point to the US' failures. That said, the parent poster isn't the US government, but a private citizen raising a valid criticism of another country. So why can't it stand on its own, without a big show of self-criticism first? Can we not criticize others until our…

I hear what you're saying here, and no, our country doesn't have to be perfect before criticizing someone else. But still, we should wonder if the criticism is motivated by something other than pure concern for human rights. You expect me to believe that Americans are mad at China strictly because they really, really care about the rights of muslims? With our record and our allies' records? Or is it possible that thi…

I believe that people who claim to be mad at Chinese human rights abuses are mostly genuine in their feelings. They also have a blind spot for the abuses of their own country and their allies. That blind spot probably comes from the part of ourselves that's very tribal, as well as a social and political environment that ignores and minimizes self-criticism.

Now, if we're talking about the US state department, then absolutely they're doing it for geopolitical interests. However, they're also reflecting the concerns of at least some of their citizens.

I'd also like to note that there's a moral equivalence argument to be made here. It's possible that China's abuses are actually worse than our own. Or maybe not. I just want to acknowledge that aspect of this argument, but I don't want to get into it because I'm not really informed enough to make it, and I'm certain that 80% of that impression is formed by skimming headlines and whatnot, which is not really a proper basis for debate.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#237

Post by Waterfall »

gruez wrote: post #221
Waterfall wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you can. I used a jailbreak app on ios6 and I used llama on Android for this. >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re... I got my own room in my house with it, back in the 3G/4G days. I'm not sure what modern software and hardware can do it now, but I'm pretty sure it'…

> https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re... . >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. >A number of factors can impact location data accuracy, including its source, which can include GPS signals, Wi-Fi and cell tower triangulation. Seems like the figures they're giving is with wifi/gps signals, not just cell tow…

I am sure they were able to do it without it, but others can interfer. Triangulation was already a thing in the courts. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/victory-supreme-court-... It's in Carpenter vs US, for deducting he robbed a store from just the cell phone signals.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#238

Post by ferest »

ferest wrote: post #231
enitihas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison with India is wrong, or you don't understand the scale of what is happening in China. For starters, India is not re-educating anyone.

i doubt you understand the "fact" you are talking about in person, rather than from some "news". India is not re-educating anyone, but rules out muslim from citizenship? Not even mention the caste system, which is way worse than the color discrimination in US. When India became the 2nd biggest power in the world, all these will become target

> Your arguments lack context. India isn't ruling out Muslims from citizenship. While the CAA is a very bad step forward, and has several problems, it is about what criteria satisfying refugees are available for quick citizenship, and doesn't apply to citizens of the country. India is certainly not running anything close to the camps China is running for Uyighurs.

I could argue the same, the so-called reeducation camps only applies to xinjiang province, and for those could only get education from religion maniacs, rather than a normal school. And there were numbers of attack events were caused by it. Keep in mind Uyighurs are not only living in xinjiang, there are uyighurs living in rest parts of China and doing well.

> India is actively trying to fix disparities caused by the caste system. It took the US 200 years to get civil rights, India had affirmative action from day one, and one of the biggest examples of affirmative action at that. The caste system is horrendous, but social change can never be brought so quickly ( atleast in a democratic way, we certainly don't want Stalin or Mao style quick changes)

Aye aye, it took 200 years for the US to have civil rights for all (still problematic), and Inida takes 70+ years still working on the caste problems, when it reaches China, which was founded after India, we are suddenly asking for all equal society. Yes, unwillingly education is bad, but keeping them blank and poor is evil. Learning skills to fit into a society, even it doesn't fit into your propaganda, is not wrong.

> The caste system, while bad, isn't in any way worse than color discrimination in the US. To quote just one example, India has very strong laws against caste based violence.

US also has strong anti hate crime law, and is one of countries offers most assistance for anti-discrimination, law doesn't help unless vast majority are educated to do so, and vast majority has economy power to do so.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#239

Post by ben_w »

nicky0 wrote: post #39
ben_w wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true, these rules should’ve been brought in months ago. (Also: do people really need more than one week?)

Months ago there were massive shortages of PPE and UK was largely in lockdown with most people only going out to exercise and to shop, not going anywhere else, and not seeing famliy, friends etc. Now the risk profile of things has changed because people are out and about more. But 11 days does seem a bit long, sure.

The masks normal people need to wear aren’t the same masks that medical staff need to wear — the former mainly stop you infecting others, the later keep you safe from others.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#240

Post by cameldrv »

mrbonner wrote: post #235

It is increasingly appears that the CCP government wants to confront every countries at the same time. First, I thought this was just the power struggle/grab between US-CCP economically. Then, it spread to the political issues like the South China sea claims which pisses off Viet Nam, The Philippines , Taiwan. The CCP even manages to engage India into its territorial issue resulted in sanction from Indian gov. In the…

Maybe they just feel that it's a good time strategically to push the envelope on multiple fronts while everyone is distracted by COVID.
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