Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#231

Post by jlebar » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

jlebar wrote: post #201

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

> I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. I'd really like them to step up. Where's the intervention and condemnation from the presumed silent majority of good cops in any of these incidents? https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-... Here's a video of an old man being attacked by police in Buffalo, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-…

Here's a mass resignation, but in protest for officers being disciplined for shoving the old dude. https://mobile.twitter.com/GaryRidesBikes/status/12689856604...

Where are the good apples?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#232

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

rrmm wrote: post #229

throwaway894345 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. Daniel Shaver had no criminal history, he was unarmed in his own hotel room on his hands and knees begging for his life when a police officer shot him five times. Tim Timpa was pinned to the ground with at least one officer kneeling on his back while he struggled to breath, begging police officers to get off of him, saying they were g…

> Minority communities' anxiety is the result of--not the cause for--the media's fear mongering. I would politely exhort you to do more research on the subject and meet members of the communities involved.

I'm always doing research on this subject, including speaking with members of these communities. I agree that it's important. There's also a lot of nuance that my comment glossed over, for brevity.

EDIT: In fact, my desire for better dialog and my ongoing research are both motivated by a desire (for me personally and for our society more broadly) to better understand and fix the problem.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#233

Post by tastroder » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #206

tastroder wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, media sensationalism aside, honest question from outside the US: they had decades to change something and just about nothing happened, is a nuanced conversation about this realistic? Plus, if they wanted a nuanced conversation it would help if they didn't shoot at and abuse media representatives. One journo I follow tracks unprovoked attacks on clearly identifiable journalists, days ago when that was at about…

> they had decades to change something and just about nothing happened, is a nuanced conversation about this realistic? This is simply because it hasn't been a priority. It's good that this is drawing attention to the issue (assuming there aren't more important issues that aren't receiving attention as a consequence--I'm withholding judgment), but it's bad insofar as it's being portrayed as a race issue when there is…

Thanks for the explanation, you're right, seems like I misread that part of your suggestion.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#234

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #146

rrmm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people are just really, really angry at this moment in time due to the long history of injustices and numerous examples in the past few days. Nuance is real hard to do under these circumstances.

It's not so hard if the media didn't cherry pick examples for the purpose of enraging Americans. There's probably a lot to be legitimately upset about, but blacks are killed by police less frequently than victim-reported crime statistics predict. If the media gave proportional attention to white victims like Tony Timpa or Daniel Shaver, it wouldn't feel so much like police are targeting black citizens. Maybe we would…

So you are going to use absolute numbers vs. per capita when comparing killings by police? And I love the way that you explain non-white communities being targeted as "feelings" and not a historical constant as long as the US has existed.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#235

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

rrmm wrote: post #229

throwaway894345 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. Daniel Shaver had no criminal history, he was unarmed in his own hotel room on his hands and knees begging for his life when a police officer shot him five times. Tim Timpa was pinned to the ground with at least one officer kneeling on his back while he struggled to breath, begging police officers to get off of him, saying they were g…

> Minority communities' anxiety is the result of--not the cause for--the media's fear mongering. I would politely exhort you to do more research on the subject and meet members of the communities involved.

I've always been amazed at how when the black community mentions something to do with race, it's always seen as if we are making up some kind of elaborate fiction solely for slandering the United States.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#236

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #128

jeffdavis wrote: post #63

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

I think the current action of work was "it's bad PR". And just that (no notion of good and bad). My personal take is: Police is conceptually good, but in practice can be be anything from net bad to net good. And while you can give a label per country. Differences in the same country (and state) can be huge. If many bad cases exists there is dangerous failure in the system. While for view cases is most often a human f…

> Police is conceptually good, but in practice can be be anything from net bad to net good.

I hear this a lot, but I have a really hard time imagining a functioning society with no police. A society can't function (pretty much by definition) without law and order and law and order has never existed apart from some policing apparatus (at least not for anything besides the simplest of civilizations). Our police are surely suboptimal, but I don't see any sense in the idea that we would be better off with no police at all.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#237

Post by xnyan » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #181

stormbrew wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the police are more of a threat to criminals to specific subsets of the population is absolutely, unquestionably, factually true. There is more than enough personal attestation to the experiences of black and queer people (including those who otherwise have privilege in some ways) in the US with police to say this with confidence. They aren't to you perhaps. And again, when people call for abolition of the polic…

Any statistic is true of a small subset of the population. To use your example of black people: Killed in 2018: Black or African American 2,925 Police killed 1,098 people in 2019. (I can't find exact numbers by race) Again, I'm not arguing that there isn't police bias against minorities, that they aren't disportionally affected, or anything like this. But the facts simply show that the police kill less people than ot…

> But the facts simply show that the police kill less people than other people do

The total number of police is a fraction of the population of the united states. Do you really not understand even the most basic math or is this argument in bad faith?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#238

Post by steffandroid » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

sol_invictus wrote: post #174

pravus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a video today of a 75-year old man being shoved by police for something that I can in no way defend. He fell backwards and blood started leaking from his head while he fell unconscious. No officer even attempted to render aid. I have watched a video of a SWAT team breaking into a man's home and murdering him point-blank because he was holding a golf club for the crime of using naturally occurring plants and…

I’m sure there’s truth to it, but there are 800k police officers in the US. Are you ready to condemn the entire profession because of a handful of bad experiences?

It's not so much the profession that's being condemned, more the institution.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#239

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #235

rrmm wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minority communities' anxiety is the result of--not the cause for--the media's fear mongering. I would politely exhort you to do more research on the subject and meet members of the communities involved.

I've always been amazed at how when the black community mentions something to do with race, it's always seen as if we are making up some kind of elaborate fiction solely for slandering the United States.

> I've always been amazed at how when the black community mentions something to do with race, it's always seen as if we are making up some kind of elaborate fiction solely for slandering the United States.

That wasn't my claim, and you know it. I'm happy to be wrong, I'm just trying to make sense of the contrast between the data and public opinion. I'm genuinely very sorry for any emotional distress this debate causes and I know that the distress it's very one-sided, but I don't know how we are going to make social progress apart from real dialogue (both across political lines as well as racial lines). Why malign people who are trying to understand and help?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#240

Post by dathinab » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #236

dathinab wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the current action of work was "it's bad PR". And just that (no notion of good and bad). My personal take is: Police is conceptually good, but in practice can be be anything from net bad to net good. And while you can give a label per country. Differences in the same country (and state) can be huge. If many bad cases exists there is dangerous failure in the system. While for view cases is most often a human f…

> Police is conceptually good, but in practice can be be anything from net bad to net good. I hear this a lot, but I have a really hard time imagining a functioning society with no police. A society can't function (pretty much by definition) without law and order and law and order has never existed apart from some policing apparatus (at least not for anything besides the simplest of civilizations). Our police are sur…

Yes, through if you look at the role the police plays for some minority's, especially in some authoritarian or unstable countries they might be better off with no official police and (likely biased and not very good) self mad order keeping.

Through I don't think this is the case for any democratic country.

In the end bad police is normally better for larger societies then no police at all.

But at the same time bad police can do a lot additional damage. I.e. it keeps some sources of danger in check but at the same time adds a new source of danger.

Which is, I thing, one reason why some people believe they can do without police. The other reason is the thing below:

Law and order exists just fine in small isolated (but not simple) societies without police. Especially if the society mostly contains similar minded people.

Additionally you need neither law nor order in the modern sense for a small isolated but we'll working society. A common goal, respect for other people and implicit traditions can be enough in that case.

I also can thing of at least on model for a larger society working without police through some form of self policing and self survilence but that's much more distopian than the US system as far as I can tell.