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Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

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Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#231

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #176
Apocryphon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeremy Corbyn lost the election, his chance for higher political power is over, so your fear would seem misplaced. Furthermore, you talk abstractions of political power (ignoring the fact that by participating in the forging of a weapon, you can put in the necessary safeguards and checks and balances to keep it a well-regulated arm), but fail to talk about the realities of working conditions and labor relations. By p…

He's an example to illustrate that leftist sympathies mean nothing. Not worried about Corbyn anymore, obviously, since he's a spent force. I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. Anyway, you don't need me, or any of the 2% who are immigr…

USTW are an inflammatory noisy bunch, but their influence- even the public's awareness of their existence- appears to be pretty limited. I've only encountered them before on Twitter because their name is so generic; your comment is literally the only result for "USTW" on this entire website. The current administration's protectionist policies likely do not stem from their lobbying efforts, if any, but from the general nativist attitudes of the incumbent. The U.S. Techworkers is also a very different organization:

https://twitter.com/techworkersco/status/974352480740847616

> Not a one is convinced by TWC ending up ultimately different.

Are they even aware of the existence of the TWC? Or that they're very, very different from the USTW? It's not exactly as if those who might support the latter aren't already vehemently against the latter:

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/progressives-immigrat...

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2010/10/08/anti-immigran...

> I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me.

The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests.

That said, all of this academic because the libertarian/atomized individualist current of the tech industry makes the prospect of a tech worker's union more or less near-impossible, so your hysteria is largely baseless. Even if your opinion about U.S. software engineers being largely xenophobic is correct- an assertion that is complicated by the fact that SV SWEs include many immigrants, and an organization like the TWC welcomes H-1B workers into its ranks- it would seem that the USTW's almost complete lack of presence, xenophobic MUNI ads aside, would seem to indicate that individualist instincts trump xenophobia.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#232

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #231
renewiltord wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's an example to illustrate that leftist sympathies mean nothing. Not worried about Corbyn anymore, obviously, since he's a spent force. I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. Anyway, you don't need me, or any of the 2% who are immigr…

USTW are an inflammatory noisy bunch, but their influence- even the public's awareness of their existence- appears to be pretty limited. I've only encountered them before on Twitter because their name is so generic; your comment is literally the only result for "USTW" on this entire website. The current administration's protectionist policies likely do not stem from their lobbying efforts, if any, but from the genera…

> The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests.

These groups have no intentional aim to enforce or protect any but their most dominant pressure groups. If the day comes when they have to save the union by discarding their minority participants, they will do it; and if they could do it by saving their minority participants, they will do it; and if they could do it by discarding some and saving others, no doubt they would do that too.

TWC's present welcome is no indicator of any future resolve and it will take no large amount of work for those same H1-B workers to find themselves within a brazen bull that they've built.

> ...individualist instincts trump xenophobia

Indeed, and would that it be that it is forever so. Constantly crushing the chauvinist collectivist keeps him from dominating the weak. Diffuse power strengthens the weak. Concentrated power oppresses.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#233

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #232
Apocryphon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USTW are an inflammatory noisy bunch, but their influence- even the public's awareness of their existence- appears to be pretty limited. I've only encountered them before on Twitter because their name is so generic; your comment is literally the only result for "USTW" on this entire website. The current administration's protectionist policies likely do not stem from their lobbying efforts, if any, but from the genera…

> The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests. These groups have no intentional aim to enforce or protect any but their most dominant pressure groups. If the…

> These groups have no intentional aim to enforce or protect any but their most dominant pressure groups.

That is a pessimistic view of human society, but valid. That said, you can say the same of any arbitrary organization, from a startup to a major corporation to a healthcare system. A critique of labor unions is incomplete unless you can prove that they are inherently predisposed to the tyranny you suggest. Otherwise it is just a philosophical opinion as valid as any other, an interesting abstract notion about the nature of power, but not really useful in a discussion about policy.

> Diffuse power strengthens the weak. Concentrated power oppresses.

One should also take care to remember that the market itself is not a state of nature, but a place where many entities of concentrated power already dominate, and that power is far less diffuse than one may think- and in the cases such as US v. Adobe Systems Inc., et al., these corporations are not above collaborating to dominate the weak!

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#234

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #233
renewiltord wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests. These groups have no intentional aim to enforce or protect any but their most dominant pressure groups. If the…

> These groups have no intentional aim to enforce or protect any but their most dominant pressure groups. That is a pessimistic view of human society, but valid. That said, you can say the same of any arbitrary organization, from a startup to a major corporation to a healthcare system. A critique of labor unions is incomplete unless you can prove that they are inherently predisposed to the tyranny you suggest. Otherw…

I don't think they're any more inherently predisposed to tyranny. I just don't want to manufacture additional opponents when I have sufficient to deal with. Surely you understand that, being trapped in a sleeping lion's den, I would not ask you to throw in a cobra.

You are right, of course, large companies often cartelize to harm and employers inherently have more power in the relationship so it's already unbalanced. I have no objection to ad hoc organizations that form to fight singular causes, but a long-term group? It will, over time, dedicate more of its energies towards ensuring its existence and less to the cause it ostensibly espouses. And then, I expect to look in a window and see Mr. Pilkington and Napoleon arguing over their cards, and I doubt I will be able to tell which is which.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#235

Post by bildung »

renewiltord wrote: post #227
bildung wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home pay certainly isn't the metric that is improved here, but rather pay per hour. How many hours per year does a Silicon Valley tech worker work? Absolute pay e.g. in Germany is significantly less, but then the absolute hours worked in a full time job are probably 800 hours less per year than in Silicon Valley: 6 weeks of paid holiday are standard in tech here, plus e.g. 2 weeks paid sick leave because of the…

For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0. Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer. Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $…

I think the main point was lost a bit once actual numbers got involved: Everyone gets these benefits in other countries, regardless of type of job. Of course you get paid holidays and good healthcare, but what about all the other people in your town enabling you to have your jobs - healthcare workers, cleaners, workers in the shops and warehouses and so on? The point of unions isn't maximized profits for a few, but a good living for everyone. That reduces income inequality, which sometimes lessens the options for the few at the top of the income pyramid.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#236

Post by JoeAltmaier »

devado wrote: post #222
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice idealism. But human beings have trouble managing that kind of platform. Every idiot's lies look just as legitimate as expert opinion. Other idiots can search for confirmation of their biases and find any number of hits that way. Call it what you like; we're not coping very well with unrestricted dissemination of disinformation. Folks have gamed it at the highest levels.

Aren't zuck and his company made of humans? What magic powers do they have to suddenly curate things accurately and deem the destiny of mankind? I have trouble following what you are trying to say. Maybe you are asking for all social media to be shutdown altogether.

You made all that up. I asked for nothing. Ridicule is unnecessary and misplaced.

Funny how folks get defensive when criticism of their addiction is put forward. You can always tell.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#237

Post by jlebar »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #140
jlebar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say something, and I say, here's some evidence that you're wrong, does that make me an arbiter of the truth on the Internet? I mean, how is what you did (saying something) any different from what I did (also saying something)?

In that scenario you're a regular participant in a discussion, presumably as another user of a platform, standing on equal footing with others. This NOT what this is about! If you're the owner of the platform, and prominently inject your POV, thats starting to get problematic. I understand the impulse to do that, but people aren't thinking about the 2nd order effects.

So the difference is prominence, highlighting this one particular reply because it was written by the platform itself?

I'm still not seeing how this is a big deal. What are the second-order effects?

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#238

Post by devado »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #236
devado wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't zuck and his company made of humans? What magic powers do they have to suddenly curate things accurately and deem the destiny of mankind? I have trouble following what you are trying to say. Maybe you are asking for all social media to be shutdown altogether.

You made all that up. I asked for nothing. Ridicule is unnecessary and misplaced. Funny how folks get defensive when criticism of their addiction is put forward. You can always tell.

And you still haven't told us what your solution is. It's easy to criticize. "it sucks" . ok, so?

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#239

Post by vore »

devado wrote: post #220
vore wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Flag their messages too. You and I are both agreeing what Trump is saying is horrendous. And, for what it's worth, I'm gay and a part of a minority and I am privileged to live somewhere where there's little repression for who I am. I absolutely want to see people pushing back on countries that have terrible leaders who would repress my life: if you're going to shrug then say "well that's just policy", that honest…

> I am privileged to live somewhere where there's little repression for who I am. We reached here because we had complete freedom of speech. And you are against that very thing, the irony

This is a complete non-sequitur to what I said.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#240

Post by JoeAltmaier »

devado wrote: post #238
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made all that up. I asked for nothing. Ridicule is unnecessary and misplaced. Funny how folks get defensive when criticism of their addiction is put forward. You can always tell.

And you still haven't told us what your solution is. It's easy to criticize. "it sucks" . ok, so?

Not smart enough to fix all mankinds ills. Just noticing, we're addicted and its not going well.
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