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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#231

Post by mistermann »

rayiner wrote: post #215
Consultant32452 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was nothing incompatible about our values regarding what we saw in that video. The idea that there was a political divide about this incident is a myth. Even the openly racist people I know were saying it was fucked up.

Yes, but the immediate aftermath of that showed deep disagreement about “what to do about that problem.” Leftists want to dismantle the “systems of oppression” they perceive produces that result. Libertarians want to get rid of qualified immunity and police unions. Conservatives are taken aback by the rioting and violence and for them the immediate need maintaining social order has overtaken the more long term desire…

I wonder how accurate these old standby run-of-the mill memes we repeat ad nauseum really are. What data are they based on, really? And even if they are true, might it be possible that people that hold these opinions hold them because they've never been involved in any serious in-depth analysis & discussion on the topics? There's not even that much serious, accurate, unbiased material out there to base such conversations on, and I sure as hell don't know of too many people who'd be interested in getting involved in such things if purely left up to their own volition.

Perhaps if we had some serious, organized, factual discussions on some of these matters (as opposed to the all propaganda all the time approach we've become so accustomed to), people wouldn't continue to hold the same opinions they (supposedly) hold at the moment.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#232

Post by moolcool »

marcosdumay wrote: post #54
nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

> democratic protest

It seems like the protestors have lost faith in the democratic process. Can you still call it a democratic protest?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#233

Post by luckylion »

saagarjha wrote: post #142
frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

> But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. The goal is to bring that number as close to zero as possible.

That's easy: just remove all laws or all law enforcement.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#234

Post by smogcutter »

lliamander wrote: post #205
slyslacker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it…

Your other suggestions may be good, but implicit bias training is a bad idea. The correlation between implicit bias and discriminatory behavior is weak to non-existent[1]. [1] https://www.chronicle.com/article/Can-We-Really-Measure-Impl...

Yeah, implicit bias training is snake oil. It’s something they can pay consultants for to look like they’re taking action, without asking any difficult questions about the structure of the department.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#235

Post by mistermann »

kelvin0 wrote: post #225

Now I know this is old news, but it's not unheard of that law enforcement finds ways to infiltrate protests and make them turn into something else than a peaceful affair, even in tame ol' Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went... https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions... So instead of condemning the few who 'incite violence', it might be useful to ponder if the game…

The one group who is most on top of such things, the dread conspiracy theorists, have been the subject of an intense, coordinated slur campaign for many years now. There are several interesting quirks about this whole affair, but you'll sure as hell never see them on the 6 o'clock news, voluntarily at least.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#236

Post by saagarjha »

luckylion wrote: post #233
saagarjha wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. The goal is to bring that number as close to zero as possible.

That's easy: just remove all laws or all law enforcement.

Thankfully we are not robots and can take multiple things into account when optimizing :)

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#237

Post by vkou »

lliamander wrote: post #139
mmastrac wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cherry-picked just the MLK quote and added an ad-hominem which isn't a very productive argument.

Calling someone names is not an ad-hominem . Making accusations about a person's character can be a valid inference based on their behavior. What makes an ad-hominem is thinking that a person's character (or other attributes) has any bearing on the correctness of their argument. For example: "X is a bad person, therefore their argument is invalid" is an ad-hominem . Bad people can still make valid arguments. "X's arg…

> Calling someone names is not an ad-hominem

It's not, but it also has no place on HN.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#238

Post by Miraste »

zo1 wrote: post #183
runawaybottle wrote: post #92

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

My crazy ideas to stop this and violence/law-breaking in general. This should cause a huge reduction in these issues we claim we're having. 1. Body cams mandatory for all police inside & outside of the station, and they stay on 100% of the time and batteries should last the whole shift. No ifs/buts/maybes. If the need arises, bathroom breaks can be edited out after the fact. 2. National ID card, in all states and man…

> Track all cell-phone locations, strongly-linked and verified to individual identities, and store permanently . . . . This one alone could solve so many crimes in my view that I am saddened to no end that people prevent it from happening safely at the recurring expense of innocent lives.

People stop it from happening (to some degree and at great cost) because this would hurt far more than it would help. Imagine if the police could do this now. They would use it to drag everyone who had been in the vicinity of the protests out of their homes and lock them up (at best). "Secure" and "court orders" would never hold up in practice, but "permanent" certainly would. Plus, all criminals would need to do to avoid it is not bring cell phones to crimes, or bring someone else's. Unless you want to mandate carrying government tracking beacons at all times? I'm no libertarian, but this is one of the worst proposals for fixing police brutality I've ever seen.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#239

Post by localhost3000 »

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

did you just "actually" Barack Obama on how change happens in a democracy?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#240

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

solomonb wrote: post #49
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party?

The Boston Tea Party was very targeted. They destroyed the tea that they had an objection to. They did not destroy the ships. They did not burn down the customs houses or otherwise damage Boston Harbor. It also only lasted three hours. It was not a riot, but rather a well-organized and well-executed precise political statement. That was one of the reasons that it was so effective politically.
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