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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#231

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

Budabellly wrote: post #99

Is there any way that it could make sense to require reporting the # of hours a student spends in SAT/ACT tutoring, whether it be private, through your school, or other? As a required field on the common app, this could help in making admissions decisions. There are so many reasons using standardized tests for admissions isn't fair across the board, but perhaps understanding how much prep went into the test would pro…

Punishing the people who put in extra time to improve themselves really seems like an odd way to go.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#232

Post by curiousllama »

I can't help but wonder at the motivations for these changes, at UC and other schools. It seems to be a combination of equity (it favors rich kids), effectiveness (it's not that predictive) and risk aversion (can't prove racist admissions if there's no standardized comparison).

And yet... I wonder if we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Standardized tests _seem_ like they could be such a such a powerful force for fairness & efficiency. I wonder that there isn't a way to improve the test - especially since, at this rate, the SAT could be obsolete in a decade or two.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#233

Post by barry-cotter »

mc32 wrote: post #80
jdashg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't without standardized metrics, is the problem! If no one's failing, must someone always get a D?

Not in a given class, but across all instances of that class, surely it will be more normal.

Not if the population is not a random sample. Cal Tech admits would have no problem doing a two year A.S. in CS in one semester. Doesn’t mean you can expect the same of the average community college student. A highly selected student population could easily have the worst student in class at Harvard doing better than the best student at Directional State U.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#234

Post by barry-cotter »

PureParadigm wrote: post #171
catalogia wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced more time on tests will actually help somebody who doesn't legitimately have some relevant disability. Generally tests are structured so that if you know the material, you'll have plenty of time to spare. But if you don't know the material, it's unlikely you'll figure it out even if you're given twice as much time on the exam. It's not like they'll spend that extra hour teaching themselves the trigo…

I've taken exams in college where the professors intentionally put more questions on the exam than you have time for. They say, "think of each question as an opportunity to increase your score" as opposed to caring about answering them all. The score is then standardized at the end, since most results are below 50% correct. It turns out exams like this usually give a very normally shaped distribution. More time is a…

More time is only an advantage if you get it and others don’t.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#235

Post by selimthegrim »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #93
stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

The universities generally aren’t run by the government, so their entrance criteria shouldn’t be.

The UC system pretended to be, even though a majority of their revenue isn't from state government anymore and CA abolished the commission for higher education planning (although it looks like Newsom is putting it back together)

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/08/12/califor...

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#237

Post by [deleted] »

remarkEon wrote: post #220
ciarannolan wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system [...] Are you sure? Because I think the "elites" or very wealthy will be perfectly fine with removing objectivity. In fact, it helps them. This hurts working class and poor applicants who don't fit the, shall we say, "background" that admissions offices of elite universities are looking for in 2020. As time goes on I have less and le…

I've edited my comment because I wasn't clear. I agree with you. >This hurts working class and poor applicants who don't fit the, shall we say, "background" that admissions offices of elite universities are looking for in 2020. Exactly this . The test was a way out, especially for gifted kids from poor backgrounds.

[deleted]

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#238

Post by Izkata »

accurrent wrote: post #158
hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

I'm not American, but I have seen a lot of my friends apply for American universities. Personally, I think the whole admission process is super messed up. In most places one would take a nation/international examination and based on the score of that exam one would enter. In the US one has to pay "college counselors" and various middle men for handling all sorts of things. I don;t see how removing SATs would make it…

> In the US one has to pay "college counselors" and various middle men for handling all sorts of things.

That wasn't a thing when I was applying in 2005, is it recent? I just applied directly to the colleges I wanted, filled out the forms myself with some help from my parents.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#239

Post by abhorrence »

curiousllama wrote: post #232

I can't help but wonder at the motivations for these changes, at UC and other schools. It seems to be a combination of equity (it favors rich kids), effectiveness (it's not that predictive) and risk aversion (can't prove racist admissions if there's no standardized comparison). And yet... I wonder if we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Standardized tests _seem_ like they could be such a such a powerful fo…

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.
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