I guess we’ll see if the US Constitution is a suicide pact.
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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
231–240 of 604 posts
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.
> By and large we have the rights we want. And I assume you fool yourself into not wanting any of the rights you don't have, my fellow subject of the crown? Won't it be fun to be able to teach a pug to do a nazi salute once in a while?
Oi oi, do you have a license for that hot opinion?
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…
There is a Presidential election in six months. That means there is a major element of politics in everything that happens between now and then. The incumbent candidate wants to reopen. Because the election is near, it's especially important for the other side to portray whatever he does as wrong and incompetent and life-threatening. So you then have a major political apparatus pushing the argument that reopening is…
> The incumbent candidate wants to reopen. Because the election is near, it's especially important for the other side to portray whatever he does as wrong and incompetent and life-threatening. So you then have a major political apparatus pushing the argument that reopening is dangerous and publicizing any instance of any authority saying anything negative about it. They don't benefit from a nuanced or moderate position.
This same debate is happening in every country in the world, including ones that don't have an election in six months.
So, no, this is not just a bunch of political wankery that's aimed at making Orange Man look bad. It's a very clear consequence of what the two parties value.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#234This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…
> This state supreme court could have delayed.
This isn’t the rule of law. It’s a cop out.
The problem is leaders had insufficient authorised powers. The solution to that isn’t to ignore the law. It’s to change it. Have the debate about who can activate quarantine under what grounds and in which circumstances, pass the bill and enumerate those powers.
Playing devil’s advocate, the precedent of a single leader having the power to place millions under effective house arrest with limited checks or balances is ripe for abuse.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#235“If a forest fire breaks out, there is no time for debate. Action is needed. The governor could declare an emergency and respond accordingly. But in the case of a pandemic, which lasts month after month, the governor cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely,” Roggensack wrote for the majority. Refreshing to see some pressure for democracy to resume.
So, an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials, and that is called a victory for democracy?
> an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials
To my knowledge, there was no such legislation. The order was issued by the executive.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surely the Wisconsin legislature, if it desired to direct these efforts, could muster a plurality of the state legislature to override or overrule the Governor, could they not? If it's truly a case of gubernatorial overreach, it's not like they don't have a wide variety of options at their disposal. I'm hardly a legal scholar, but I have yet to hear of a state that hasn't been able to override a governor's decision m…
The issue is with the invocation of emergency powers which do not usually have an override process thus the need for the judiciary to weigh in.
Typically, the override processes require 2/3rds of the legislature.
If the republican part of the legislature could convince the democratic part of the legislature to vote with them, they could probably pull this off. Since they can't, they are asking partisan judges to force the issue, instead.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#237This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…
> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…
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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.
Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…
So since March we've seen multiple countries (Korea, China, New Zealand) largely contain the virus, and start re-opening the economy. The way you do it is to get RThe way that these countries have been able to get RThat at least is my understanding, and it's been largely informed by this webpage, which I found incredibly helpful. https://ncase.me/covid-19/
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
But we’re talking about Wisconsin, not New York. The death rate in Wisconsin is 1 in 14,000. Flu is about 1 in 4,000-5,000 in a typical year. New York is such an outlier in terms of death rates that it should be a totally separate conversation.
It spread much faster in New York so we got to see the devastation it can cause. Same will eventually happen everywhere else if the measures to slow the spread are lifted. I don’t get why you’d want to exclude the data from New York when it’s our best example of what a full-scale outbreak looks like in the US.
There's a lot more to it than that. Dig.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…
> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…
I will judge a thing on it's merits. I will judge a government by how it behaves, not by my preferred political party.
So... in the UK we have the Daily Briefings about covid. Each time I listen to it I hear politicians (they take it in turns) to come out and give us a fucking performance, projecting their voice, projecting (they think) 'calm' and 'competent' and 'in charge of it all' while they spew words for 15 or 20 minutes which could have been given in 5 at the most.
Then it's time for questions from journalists. Which get answered if convenient or if inconvenient they'll answer a question that wasn't asked, all the fucking while spinning to make themselves look like they've not made a series of serious mistakes.
And each time I hear it my confidence in their competence drops further.
And they've no idea why. They don't seem to understand respect is earned.