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China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

theguardian.com

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Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#231
post #209
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it affected their own people less, gaining a net advantage over other nations. A totalitarian/authoritarian state will always be able to manage an epidemic more effectively than a democratic one. Disclaimer: I don’t believe this, just playing devil’s advocate

Yep, China has recovered while the rest of the world is still crippled. I wouldn't put it past China to cause harm to their own citizens to gain a position of power. Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along.

> Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along.

everybody keeps saying this, but just stop. it doesn't help and it confuses. all you do is bolster people who skip over your "disclaimer", even if you actually do believe your disclaimer.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To create pseudoviruses which are able to infect under lab conditions, but not able to replicate, or to survive in a human or any other organism. If this were one of those, as has been claimed on the basis of the frequently mis-cited October 2019 WIV paper, anyone in the world would be able to see that by comparing the SARS-CoV-2 sequence accessioned in NCBI's database with one of the many HIV sequences also availabl…

Thanks for the info. I'm clearly not an expert. But I do still have questions. 1) where did hiv sequences come from? Are they the human immuno deficiency virus sequences? 2) you are suggesting that chimeras are created impotent, and that hybrid viruses cannot be created to be effective otherwise. My question is that whatever combination of pangolin and bat viruses is said to have happened naturally in a host, could i…

These are great questions, and thank you for asking them!

1. Yes. The claim based on the misreading of the 2019 paper is that SARS-CoV-2 is actually a lab-created combination of another coronavirus and the human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV. If that were true, the genome of SARS-CoV-2 would incorporate large parts of the HIV genome verbatim. It does not; comparing these genomes for identical or nearly identical subsequences via BLAST, by far the tool most widely used for this purpose, shows no such similarity.

2. Viral recombination occurs when multiple related strains of a given virus infect the same cell at the same time. That can be done in vitro, but I haven't seen any papers from WIV describing such experiments. Notably, the frequently cited 2019 paper describes a totally different kind of experiment, which could not under any circumstances have produced a virus with the genome which SARS-CoV-2 has been observed to have.

3. For that to happen would require two different strains of the same virus to independently develop the same mutation allowing them to cross over and infect humans, and to simultaneously infect the same worker in the lab, and to then recombine in such a way as to produce SARS-CoV-2.

That is not impossible, but it is about as likely to occur as it is for every atom in your body to simultaneously transmute into gold.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#233
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people have to eat, and wild animals are only a tiny fraction of what's traded in wet markets. US supermarkets sold lettuce that killed people. Should those supermarkets be shut for good?

If the lettuce killed people and then everyone who interacted with the people who at the lettuce also got sick and the economy had to be shut down the United States would strictly ban selling lettuce immediately. If China can enforce the largest lockdown ever and enforce a one-child policy for decades, they can easily ban live animals at markets.

A) COVID-19 doesn't kill everyone it comes in contact with. Depending on where you live, more people in the last 3 months may have become seriously ill from a food-borne illness than from COVID-19.

B)Food-borne illness actually does kill around 150,000 per year worldwide. It is a serious concern, and difficult to track/contain. There are also concerns around regulations being too lax, not enough inspectors, and living conditions of those who harvest food.

C)Maybe China should ban wet markets, but then maybe people should be home for Easter Sunday and not at a church. Now we start to ban "cultural norms" and "ways of life", which people get fussy about.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#234
post #11

Combined with the researcher at the lab that was disappeared this is pretty convincing.

Her name was Huang Yan Ling (黄燕玲) for anyone who might be interested in learning more about the potential patient 0. The evidence is very compelling and this video does a good job at presenting it: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#235
I'm trying to be a good bayesian reasoner here but the particulars of this specific case are all so tangled and piecemeal. The conspiracy theorists among us are having an absolute field day with the current events and it's easy to see why.

According to my bayesian analysis, I believe that the most likely cause of this virus is a wet-market infection, followed by a slip-up at a lab, with—by high margin, in very very last place at, say, 1% probability, that this was concocted by a nefarious player (the CCP being a favorite candidate). The conspiracy theorists (my Facebook friends especially) seem to rank the likelihood of this list in reverse (i.e. clearly this was concocted by the chinese government). With how secretive and disingenuous the CCP is even on a good day, it's easy to see why their argument has a few credence points (like any good conspiracy).

But I can't reconcile that there's not much for the CCP to gain on the world stage by releasing this thing. The US was already so politically tumultuous, and the 2016 Russian disinformation campaign was so much more effective at breaking our democracy apart, with the added benefit of not sending our economy into a global recession as a byproduct. What has the CCP gained here? Xi's power as a leader has only weakened, and their position as the world's factory is now only slipping faster.

So this is kind of like 9/11 to me. The people who would be the most likely to profiteer off a tragedy like this would have not in any capacity been able to pull it off, and the ones who are powerful or otherwise sophisticated enough to pull it off don't have much incentive to anyways. So that's why bayesian reasoning leads me to believe that yes, we know these viruses jump from animals to humans from time to time, and this seems to likely be one of those instances. What am I missing?

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#236
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those international flights were allowed to let countries evacuate their own citizens out. If they were banned, you would be making the exact same complaint but reversed: "China held other countries' citizens hostage in Wuhan." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Misinformation. There were still Wuhan tourists as late as 1/28 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7937943/amp/Air-pas...

You're not even getting the direction right now. This article is about Chinese citizens trying to return to China, not leaving it.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#237

Tinfoil hat: I'm not keeping active track, but I passively perceived a sheer drop in mentions of the fact that Wuhan has China's first "biosafety level 4" laboratory, coinciding with an increased lambasting of the US's handling of their infections in the general media (" The Wuhan virus is now the American virus "), along with a streak of random US-critical posts (" What is the worst thing the US government has done?…

I'm not so sure I buy the Reddit controlled by CCP (or heavily influenced) argument. Simply because in /r/China, /r/ChineseLanguage, and /r/HongKong I see frequent posts that are highly critical of the CCP and China in general. They have many upvotes and it doesn't look like people are being banned or posts are being removed. It is nowhere like /r/Sino. I'm not trying to defend the CCP here, but just trying to say th…

I've seen way more wumao type posts in subs like r/worldnews, where typical readers are much less knowledgeable about China.

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#238
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was researching bat Corona viruses? The outbreak started at a market on the doorstep of her lab? Her name is on several papers on bat Corona virus. Just pointing out that Wuhan was studying viruses exactly like the one tearing through the world right now, lol.

>Just pointing out that Wuhan was studying viruses exactly like the one tearing through the world right now, lol. Yes, and this is important, but this is also already publicly known. It's not providing any new or interesting information. There're still a lot of other variables and factors to take into account here. Statistics aren't so simple. For example, Wuhan is a huge city, larger than NYC, and an important econo…

I see you making a lot of comments in this thread and I think you make some good points. I’m curious, could you think of an example of “strong evidence” that would support the theory that it was accidentally released from a lab?

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy this. Why would governments pay people to shitpost on Reddit when so many of us gladly do it for free?

There’s a lot of value in paying/blackmailing the moderators. You can clearly certain subreddits, such as r/worldnews, becoming increasingly pro-China. The mod team played a huge role in this, as they have been perma banning people who post a lot of anti-China comments. I’ve for instance had several accounts banned (one simply for sarcastically saying “Thanks China”) - there were also a thread on r/China where plenty…

[deleted]

Re: China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest

#240

Hi guys, As a Chinese living in US. Please be mindful that a lot of people do not distinguish China the government, and the Chinese people, living in or outside of China mainland. This type of news, are of course worth discussion. But meanwhile, please refrain from politicizing beyond the facts. Think about not letting what a few political figures have started, i.e., politicizing the event without considering the imp…

Foreigners all over the world are likely to be targeted as long as they stand out. For instance, in China, Africans are being kicked out of their homes and forced to sleep on the street (because no hotel/apartment will accept them), countless stores, including a McDonald’s restaurant, are refusing to serve foreigners (blacks are in particular targeted). Please be mindful that it’s not just Chinese or Asians being tar…

Here is what the parent post refers to:

http://shanghaiist.com/2020/04/13/even-mcdonalds-is-now-turn...

If we're to shift the conversation towards hate crimes targeted at minority groups, I think it's fair to consider hate crimes perpetrated by government mentioned in the article, crimes which are perpetrated for much the same reasons as the suppression of coronavirus research.

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