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You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

churchlifejournal.nd.edu

231–240 of 243 posts

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#231
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be looking to find grounds to criticize what I say, rather than first trying to understand it. This is leading you to creating strawmen - to the point that it begins to look deliberate. In case it's not, though, I'm going to try this one more time. You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say, and I deny you the right to do so. Did I say "ever"? No. I said that, when talking to those outside the h…

The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a bit of patience and a decent vocabulary (or the will to use a dictionary). I'm not in the humanities and I had no problem understanding it. I think it's really weird to use this particular article as an example of some kind of disconnect between the humanities and the culture at large. Pop science is fashionable, but 90% of it is fluff or pure nonsense. T…

> The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a bit of patience and a decent vocabulary (or the will to use a dictionary). I'm not in the humanities and I had no problem understanding it. I think it's really weird to use this particular article as an example of some kind of disconnect between the humanities and the culture at large.

The culture at large doesn't have the patience. (They may not have the vocabulary either, but they definitely don't have the patience. And if they don't have the vocabulary, they don't have the patience to look the words up in a dictionary, either. One word, maybe. A bunch of them, no.)

> Pop science is fashionable, but 90% of it is fluff or pure nonsense. The level of scientific knowledge of the general public remains miserably low. Are the humanities doing so much worse in engaging the public? This is not obvious to me.

Fair point. But the sciences have an alternate path to "engage" the public. We use Maxwell's results, even those of us who don't understand Maxwell's equations. Science gives us ideas and things that use them. Those who don't understand the ideas can still use the things (within limits). But the humanities just produce ideas. (And, I suppose, cultural artifacts. But the cultural artifacts are primarily a vehicle for ideas.) If the ideas aren't penetrating the surrounding culture, the humanities have in a sense failed.

Feynmann wasn't doing pop science. He was taking the real thing and making it accessible to people who, by any normal standard, didn't yet have the tools to access it. I wasn't making a plea for the humanities to ape his style - nobody could do that - but rather his drive to make the ideas of physics available to "outsiders" (motivated outsiders, outsiders who were on a path to become insiders, but still at the moment outsiders, at least for the topics being discussed).

> The article we're talking about is one example!

The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a college vocabulary and perhaps 15 minutes of undivided attention. The college vocabulary may be not all that common, but in my view it's the 15 minutes of undivided attention that's the real dealbreaker. That has become a much bigger barrier in the days of 140 characters. People will read things that take 15 minutes, but they read it with a different mindset. If what they're reading doesn't pay them back for their attention, quickly - in the first 30 seconds, say - they're out of there. They're not going to invest 15 minutes for a payoff that may or may not be there.

So, like Feynmann in the sense of reaching out to communicate the ideas of a field to those who don't seem to be ready for them, can the humanities communicate to people like that? Maybe so, but not with articles like this. They take too long to get to the payback.

(In fairness, though, while Feynmann was talking to freshman, he did probably have an hour. But the issue in his case wasn't time, it was mathematical and scientific maturity.)

For examples that do what I'm asking for (not that I necessarily like it), would you accept rap music? I specifically picked rap because you can get a lot of lyrics in a rap song. You can actually say something there. And you can still do lots of allusions and metaphor and imagery. And people actually listen - not just college kids and people that read "high quality" newspapers.

For a completely different example, see Francis Schaeffer's "He Is There and He Is Not Silent". Schaeffer is a Christian philosopher. The book in question is a philosophical sketch, really, not a fully-fleshed-out in-depth argument. But he connects basic things to very deep things in a very simple way, and he takes very few pages to do it. You don't necessarily have to agree with his conclusions to see the density of his writing.

Of course, density also takes a long time to read. But he meets my "payback in a hurry" criterion. (He does it by making me stop and think for several minutes, but he didn't take long to get there...)

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#232
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a bit of patience and a decent vocabulary (or the will to use a dictionary). I'm not in the humanities and I had no problem understanding it. I think it's really weird to use this particular article as an example of some kind of disconnect between the humanities and the culture at large. Pop science is fashionable, but 90% of it is fluff or pure nonsense. T…

> The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a bit of patience and a decent vocabulary (or the will to use a dictionary). I'm not in the humanities and I had no problem understanding it. I think it's really weird to use this particular article as an example of some kind of disconnect between the humanities and the culture at large. The culture at large doesn't have the patience . (They may not have…

>The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a college vocabulary and perhaps 15 minutes of undivided attention.

Ok, we agree then - I am just baffled that you consider this a problem.

There's something to be said for meeting 'the kids' at their level. So sure, super accessible stuff is great. But there's also the possibility of a downward spiral. The abundance of accessible, no-effort fluff wears down people's attention spans until it's impossible to have any serious public discourse about anything. If people are objecting to an article which takes 15 minutes to read and requires some level of literacy, then I think we might be well into the inner grooves of that spiral.

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#233
post #228
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind linking to the evidence? I promise I'll read it!

http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587400.html It is generated from my own extensive notes, using a tool linked from the homepage: http://lukecall.net General discussion welcome if you like. I especially appreciate feedback (see site footer for example) on the usefulness and/or navigability & skimmability of the way the content is presented. (Font is the html default, so can be configured in the browser to suit one's…

1. Why have you chosen Mormonism?

2. What makes it preferrable to Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Jehowah's Witnessing, Buddhism? Is it more correct in its doctrines?

3. Why not Paganism or an animalistic religion? Do people have a right to believe in the existence of Zeus or Thor?

4. Wikipedia says "Most of the archaeological, historical and scientific communities do not consider the Book of Mormon an ancient record of actual historical events." - is Wikipedia wrong here? What are the eternal consequences for people who get this wrong and think the Book of Mormon is baloney?

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#234
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a bit of patience and a decent vocabulary (or the will to use a dictionary). I'm not in the humanities and I had no problem understanding it. I think it's really weird to use this particular article as an example of some kind of disconnect between the humanities and the culture at large. The culture at large doesn't have the patience . (They may not have…

>The article we're talking about is accessible to anyone with a college vocabulary and perhaps 15 minutes of undivided attention. Ok, we agree then - I am just baffled that you consider this a problem. There's something to be said for meeting 'the kids' at their level. So sure, super accessible stuff is great. But there's also the possibility of a downward spiral. The abundance of accessible, no-effort fluff wears do…

True. And 'the kids' will read the super accessible stuff and think that that's all there is to understand.

I think the super accessible stuff needs to be written in a way that says "There's more here to understand, and it's worth the effort to do so." So that someone who reads it is tempted to reach for the 15 minute article, or the several-hour book. (In fact, links at the bottom would be helpful in this. "For more information, go here...")

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If you are making money when you sleep the chances that you are using machines to make money is quite large. I am doing that and I don't have any slaves working for me. If you can't see the slave analogy being what is nonsensical here then nothing I can say or do is going to convince you. So I guess by your definition you are either a slave or a slave owner. Oh well.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you know what is meant by"equity"? Are you following the context of this article? It seems like you're just spouting random phrases without a clue what we're discussing.

I am commenting on a comment about slave owners. Yes, I know what is meant by equity and yes I understand the context.

Not sure why you think snark is a relevant method here. But each to their own of course.

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#236
post #233
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587400.html It is generated from my own extensive notes, using a tool linked from the homepage: http://lukecall.net General discussion welcome if you like. I especially appreciate feedback (see site footer for example) on the usefulness and/or navigability & skimmability of the way the content is presented. (Font is the html default, so can be configured in the browser to suit one's…

1. Why have you chosen Mormonism? 2. What makes it preferrable to Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Jehowah's Witnessing, Buddhism? Is it more correct in its doctrines? 3. Why not Paganism or an animalistic religion? Do people have a right to believe in the existence of Zeus or Thor? 4. Wikipedia says "Most of the archaeological, historical and scientific communities do not consider the Book of Mormon an ancient rec…

I am not the ultimate authority but will try. I actually think you can find those answers and much more, eventually, via the links at my site including to official and other sources, but:

1. 2nd bullet here: http://lukecall.net/e9223372036854587340.html , etc: I was born to it, but my ancestors on various branches went through a process of investigation and prayer to decide for themselves, and really I had to do the same thing to stick with it (as in the above link and its subsequent ones), as it is a significant commitment (and hugely personally rewarding: peace in this life, and hope of Eternal life in the world to come, really). Also Mormonism is a misnomer: Mormon was an ancient American prophet whose abridgment etc is called the Book of Mormon, but ... details on the name here: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide .

2. We believe that a) Christ created this world and others under the direction of the Father (they are one in purpose and act in harmony, and both speak authoritatively since Christ has received the Father's delegated authority to speak as God to us); b) Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament; c) He was known to Adam and Eve and those of their posterity who chose to follow the truth, but others chose not to, and various beliefs spread among the nations at different times; d) that God has given truths to his children at different times via inspired persons, according to what they were willing to receive and what was best for them (my wording, but see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/al... ); e) that after Christ's mortal ministry, death, & resurrection, and the deaths of the apostles, that the doctrines were changed by men and worldly philosophies, and the true authority to administer ordinances was lost until being restored (re-established) through Joseph Smith in the early 1800's as part of the preparation for Christ's 2nd coming (see https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/restoration... in various languages or just click English); f) that the Church has the authority to administer the teachings, ordinances, etc today under Christ's direction; and g) that it is the (edit: fix errant paste) only true and living church on the earth today, and guided by living prophets (as Noah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc), and apostles. We respect, love, and are engaged in various partnerships and friendships with various religious and humanitarian organizations across the world, and we appreciate all the good done by all who are sincerely trying. (Site also has links on that.)

3) As above, those are not reflecting known, revealed truth from heaven. But, from our Articles of Faith:

"11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

"12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

(https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-o...)

4) Each person has to decide for themselves. Many evidences have come to light since the B of M was translated in ~1830, about ancient civilizations (some collections I have linked, and I added an interesting linguistic one to Wkp about uto-aztecan ties to near-eastern languages), but I also read (and believe) statements repeatedly that such will never provide final "proof" either way, but each person needs to ask the Father for themselves, in the way He said (as noted on my site, with references), to get a reliable answer. Such as described in scriptures linked at http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854743866.html etc.

Also importantly, we believe that everyone will eventually have the opportunity, in this life or the next, to learn truth and receive all that they are or would have been willing to follow, including the essential ordinances, and the opportunity to live in family units forever. That is why we build temples worldwide and do family history work. I believe literally in the Lord's words including "...blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted." (references linked here: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854581793.html )

I hope that helps. There really is a lot more info and means to answer questions if you look. :)

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#237
post #85
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of their income comes from government subsidies and from charitable donations. At some universities, over time, that's built up into endowments which support professors. That's very much the definition of "live on charity."

Charitable donations from wealthy people who, for some reason or another, feel indebted to their alma mater. How successful would these people be without the education they received from their professors? Educators produce enormous externalities that their students capture and build their lives around. To turn around and say they "live on charity and lecture us on money" is the height of ingratitude.

Many charities produce enormous externalities. That's why people donate to them.

I think OP's point was that those organizations don't necessarily have a good grasp of the reality those of us bound by market forces live under. That's something I've certainly seen from both universities and other ivory towers.

For the past many decades, I've donated to organizations like the FSF, mostly to allow people like Richard Stallman to be funded to do what they want. That gives those people great freedom to do the right thing, and it's well worth the money. That doesn't take away from the reality that those people are now in no position to evaluate the choices I make, without the luxury of that same sort of support.

Hence terms like 'ivory tower.' Yes, we should provide artists, scholars, and others with charity support, but yes, we should accept that distorts their worldview too.

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#238
post #233
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587400.html It is generated from my own extensive notes, using a tool linked from the homepage: http://lukecall.net General discussion welcome if you like. I especially appreciate feedback (see site footer for example) on the usefulness and/or navigability & skimmability of the way the content is presented. (Font is the html default, so can be configured in the browser to suit one's…

1. Why have you chosen Mormonism? 2. What makes it preferrable to Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Jehowah's Witnessing, Buddhism? Is it more correct in its doctrines? 3. Why not Paganism or an animalistic religion? Do people have a right to believe in the existence of Zeus or Thor? 4. Wikipedia says "Most of the archaeological, historical and scientific communities do not consider the Book of Mormon an ancient rec…

To try to answer the 2nd part of #4:

Christ is a just and merciful judge, so all will be right in the end, and we will each eventually have the necessary understanding to choose for ourselves. There are different "degrees of glory" (uh ... lifestyles?) in the hereafter, very roughly summarized as a) the Celestial Kingdom (for those who repent aka believe in Him and change their ways accordingly (usually a process as one continues to learn & improve oneself), receive essential ordinances, making and keeping covenants aka 2-way promises where He sets the terms, with God, and who can have eternal families forever etc goodness all around); b) the Terrestrial Kingdom for honorable persons of the earth who were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; c) the Telestial Kingdom for wicked who eventually paid the price of their own sins and receive a degree of glory (which, I'm under the impression, is better than this life), and d) outer darkness, reserved I think for those who really knew Christ but severely rejected him. But don't rely on me: go to the official sources (scriptures like Doctrine and Covenants section 76, general conference talks, etc).

(minor edit/s above)

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#239
post #236
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why have you chosen Mormonism? 2. What makes it preferrable to Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Jehowah's Witnessing, Buddhism? Is it more correct in its doctrines? 3. Why not Paganism or an animalistic religion? Do people have a right to believe in the existence of Zeus or Thor? 4. Wikipedia says "Most of the archaeological, historical and scientific communities do not consider the Book of Mormon an ancient rec…

I am not the ultimate authority but will try. I actually think you can find those answers and much more, eventually, via the links at my site including to official and other sources, but: 1. 2nd bullet here: http://lukecall.net/e9223372036854587340.html , etc: I was born to it, but my ancestors on various branches went through a process of investigation and prayer to decide for themselves, and really I had to do the…

Luke, I'm impressed and grateful for the high effort you put into responding to my rather low effort questions. Thank you.

Re: You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die

#240
post #239
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the ultimate authority but will try. I actually think you can find those answers and much more, eventually, via the links at my site including to official and other sources, but: 1. 2nd bullet here: http://lukecall.net/e9223372036854587340.html , etc: I was born to it, but my ancestors on various branches went through a process of investigation and prayer to decide for themselves, and really I had to do the…

Luke, I'm impressed and grateful for the high effort you put into responding to my rather low effort questions. Thank you.

You're welcome. Now make good use of it. :)
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