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New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

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Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#231
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still haven’t learned. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...

It was a bad rule back then, it is even worse now and it didn't even stand the test of time at Fog Creek (or Glitch, looks like they have renamed themselves), where they had to do it for FogBugz to finally leave Wasabi behind. I could go on about how Firefox ended up very well and not as the complete disaster that Joel predicted back then, but that's besides the point here, namely: There can be good reasons to rewrit…

So you don’t consider it a “complete disaster” that Netscape went from 80% marketshare to almost nothing overnight?

Not to mention that currently their existence is almost entirely dependent on their competitor - Google.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#232
post #68

This issue highlights one of my main fears about a pandemic such as COVID-19: if enough people with the necessary amount of knowledge to maintain necessary infrastructure die without sufficiently and timely trained replacements, then civilization as we know it becomes one more step closer towards total irrecoverable collapse. The prevalence of COBOL and other older programming languages in many parts of the world's c…

Jonathan Blow has a point that we cannot assume things will keep getting better. Although he says that we cannot fix software because we have chronically not done it for decades, his thesis is that the solution is to make software simpler. The issue I have with making things simpler is that if we don’t know how to fix things because we haven’t done it for decades, how can we make things simpler, when we haven’t done THAT for decades either? His argument rejects human exceptionalism, while also relying on it for his solution.

My point is that this absolutely is a funding and priority issue. I work as a developer who maintains legacy FORTRAN code. It was written in an era where global variables and Go To statements were the norm. Everyone who wrote it is retired or dead. It’s a pain to work with and there are parts that I haven’t yet gathered the courage to go in and change. However, me and my team have made substantive changes to it that are robust, that we have rigorously tested. This is not impossible, but it’s also not cheap or fast. It took me a year to understand how this blob of code works.

My team is young, we’re in our 20s, with backgrounds in CS, mechanical engineering, and physics. Certainly all systems are different, but if we can understand old FORTRAN, similar people can understand old COBOL. If people made it, people can understand it. We also know how to fix many broken things and how to fix many bugs. Often were told by management “not right now” and “we don’t have funding for that.” It’s frustrating, but that’s how the world works. They at least have funding to pay us to do what we’re doing now.

The point is that you can fix legacy systems, you can hire new people to do it, but it is expensive and it takes time. The whole issue is not whether we can or can’t, we can. The issue is: who can pay for it and will they?

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#233
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>it’s unlikely that a more modern enterprise system would either. sorry but that is just false. a Properly designed modern system would handle horizontal scaling just fine. Granted the government would likely pay a billion dollars to have a screwed up system developed by on of the "big guys" that has the same problems as they current system, most likely because it would be designed by committee and not by engineers.…

Many things are possible. But a core premise of government procurement is that you award to the cheapest vendor that minimally meets the mandatory requirements. Nobody would deliver a system that would just work with a claim load exponentially higher than the Great Depression. If New Jersey landed a replacement UI system in 2010, it would be some sort of J2EE monstrosity on some outdated Websphere/JBoss/BEA/Oracle pl…

Yes I am well aware of how inefficient and ineffective government is, that is one of the primary reasons I remain a libertarian...

As the saying goes, Government: if you think you have problems just wait until you see our solutions

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works with a lot of state IT people, if they don't know how to hire programmers, they probably don't know how to manage programmers. In a bureaucracy, if the administrators are making these kinds of unrealistic hiring demands in a crisis, it probably means that the administrators outrank all programmers and don't trust them to make their own decisions. This is not an environment to work in.

This is a crisis, not a normal time. Fixing this system will make the difference between real people getting unemployment checks or nothing. That's worth enduring a bad boss for.

> Fixing this system will make the difference between real people getting unemployment checks or nothing.

Let them get nothing. Then they'll call for the heads of the governors, the very people who couldn't care less about the system until it stopped working. They are the ones who could have made a difference but actively chose not to because it just wasn't that important to them.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#235
post #164
post #68

This issue highlights one of my main fears about a pandemic such as COVID-19: if enough people with the necessary amount of knowledge to maintain necessary infrastructure die without sufficiently and timely trained replacements, then civilization as we know it becomes one more step closer towards total irrecoverable collapse. The prevalence of COBOL and other older programming languages in many parts of the world's c…

Like Gibson's remark about the future already being here but not evenly distributed, the collapse is already happening but unevenly distributed. Puerto Rico was without electricity for months. Some parts of the West will recover from the economic effect of the pandemic quickly. Others won't, without help from the center.

How is that different from say 1918? Centralization?

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#236

This will sound weird, but they should call up Northwestern State University of Louisiana for an alumni list. They were one of the last 4-year places that had a COBOL-focused degree program, through to at least 2012.

Probably CGI in Lafayette hires them all

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little better than that, though not Google salaries. Skimming through some open NJ civil service jobs, I'm seeing advertised ranges like $60k-$105k for tech jobs [1] [2]. The pensions are also a lot more generous than most private-sector ones. [1] https://info.csc.state.nj.us/Vats/WebAnno.aspx?FileNumber=30... [2] https://info.csc.state.nj.us/Vats/WebAnno.aspx?FileNumber=30...

But you have to pay $25 to apply!?

Ya pay ya money and ya takes ya cheances.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#238
post #151

I was sort of tempted to pursue this. I did a few years in the salty COBOL mines back when I was a PFY about 20...plus years ago. This niche probably hasn't moved very much since then and I could probably recall most of it after a few hours. I'm freelancing right now anyway and some other projects just vaporized. But. A quick skim of the postings is finding that what they're really screaming for is somebody who's bee…

They aren't asking for so much. They want: 1. understanding the language (COBOL) 2. IBM mainframe experience (JCL, DB2, VSAM, SDLC) 3. credentialed (4-year degree) Note that SDLC is a layer 2 network protocol in the SNA stack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_Data_Link_Control

It makes no sense to me... JCL, DB2, VSAM -- ok. SDLC?

If it referred to SNA, it should be SNA/SDLC. Not referencing that (or VTAM) means Software Development Life Cycle.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#239
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't asking for so much. They want: 1. understanding the language (COBOL) 2. IBM mainframe experience (JCL, DB2, VSAM, SDLC) 3. credentialed (4-year degree) Note that SDLC is a layer 2 network protocol in the SNA stack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_Data_Link_Control

3.) is what gets me... Why do you need to pay a college to get a piece of paper to enable someone to pay you for skills you otherwise posses?

I am not saying I agree with this system, but am assuming one of the reasons is that the hiring company see the credentials as a way to not gamble on whether you "are familiar" with a subject or actually has deep knowledge of core concepts taught along a planned syllabus.

Re: New Jersey needs COBOL programmers for their unemployment claims system

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"AS YOU KNOW, "Return" and "Enter" are separate keys on your keyboard" Just FYI, my laptop has "Enter" clearly printed on both keys.

Things were different in the old days, young padawan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:4800-52-mainframe-du...

I know they were, it just occurred to me to check and whaddaya know.
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