Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#231

Post by Xixi » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

sandos wrote: post #128

toomuchtodo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking only for my personal situation, my partner is a stay at home parent. They have no career, do not want a career, and only want to be a full time parent (which I fully support). I use my resources to enable that, and make their life as easy as possible (hired help around the house, childcare, etc).

But kids dont really require one parent for the rest of that parents' life? So they then resume a non-existing career, or do they just stay home when the kids are in school etc? Living in Sweden this has always seemed a bit weird to me, since "stay at home parent" basically doesnt exist here, unless you are (involuntarily) unemployed.

In my experience from spending several years in Japan where a lot of women opt out of continuing their career after getting married/having a child: a lot of time is spent socializing with other housewives. But the harsh economic realities mean that more and more women have to work to keep the household afloat, whether they want to or not.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#232

Post by golemiprague » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #22

Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a…

Those couple of months in the beginning are not going to change the fact that right after that those kids are going to end up in some nursery because the women have to go to work just so the family can pay the rent.

So instead of at least a mother being "actively present in their life" and a father that finish work at 5 we now got two parents working late just to make ends meet.

Most of the women in the workforce are not creating any new businesses or jobs or anything of value, they are still sponsored by men work in all kind of myriad ways, unless working in some form of care taking, effectively outsourcing other women motherhood roles. That's why you got so much more problems these days with kids like ADHD and kids on the "spectrum".

Feminism destroyed the western family, there is no way around it and no bandages are going to solve the issue. I can see how much time my parents generation had for us and how much we got today for our children, it is not getting any better, mothers are miserable and the rate of divorce or single motherhood are huge. We must think of a different way and stop sticking our head in the sand while patting our backs for this disaster.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#233

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #218

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

Please demonstrate this cost and how children would be paying for it. Please use sources.

If you want both parents to be independent, then (for the vast majority of people who are not very wealthy) of course both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed. Do you need a source for that?

Both of those take time, and that's time taken away from the children, which parents do not have in abundance. Do you need a source for that?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#234

Post by bananamerica » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #51

hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Fixed that for you:

> AMONG OTHER THINGS, the asymmetry of experience is actually IN PART caused by child bearing

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#235

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #126

I know I'm going to be downvoted and already regret deciding to share this but... I've never understood parental leave. If I want to go on a vacation, I have to plan for that and save time to use for it. If you want to have a child, you should have to plan to save your time to take and spend with the child or be in a financial place where one parent can quit their job to stay with the child. It's not like you go to s…

Because it's not about individuals making good or bad decisions, but about building a good, equal society. And importantly this means caring for children as a collective society.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#236

Post by tomatocracy » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #198

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want . But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another,…

I agree that nothing's wrong with making the choice to be a stay at home mother (or father), especially when children are very young and not at school. But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be.

One of the problems in particular is that it is far too hard for people to come back to the workplace after taking a 5 or 6 year career break to look after children while they're young. People know this and it too often forces them into one of two paths - give up on their career entirely, or go back to work much sooner than they wanted to.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#237

Post by velcrovan » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #3

Seems a bit bizarre seeing that mothers in most cases will need to spend more time with their babies. After all, there are certain things like breastfeeding that only a mother can do.

Hopefully when you have a family you'll have the awareness and empathy to notice that the mother actually might need more than zero help or companionship during the months she's trying to live on no sleep with tears in her vagina and letting your child bite on her nipples.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#238

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #178

ryanmercer wrote: post #126

I know I'm going to be downvoted and already regret deciding to share this but... I've never understood parental leave. If I want to go on a vacation, I have to plan for that and save time to use for it. If you want to have a child, you should have to plan to save your time to take and spend with the child or be in a financial place where one parent can quit their job to stay with the child. It's not like you go to s…

Governments have an interest in how the children grow up. Now there is some "whatever that means" encoded in the above. However it is generally noted that children with a good relationship with both parents tend to do better in life than those with only one parent. Thus there is an interest in ensuring that relationship exists if possible.

I would rephrase that as "society has an interest in how the children grow up" so that the reader is clear that it's not a third party, but themselves that is benefited by having fellow citizens that grow up in stable families.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#239

Post by rglullis » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

codingmess wrote: post #158

ryanmercer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(edit: why is this -2? I was asking a serious question!) >14 months paid leave Certainly you meant weeks... FMLA only covers 12 weeks of unpaid leave here in the United States.

Nope - it really is about 20000€ the government gives to families.

"gives" after taking almost double in taxes. And I will surely have more years paying tons of taxes than paternity leaves.

Forgive them, Milton, for they don't know what they are saying.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#240

Post by petercooper » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc.

I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (than if I'd spent a bit less, say). Do I feel the time I spend with them now they're older pays serious dividend for their futures? Absolutely.

I own a company and can spend an above average amount of time with my children.. but are companies or the government going to support the majority of parents spending prolonged periods of times with older children? Sadly I can't see it happening, but I think that's a more important task than having two parents on tap for a newborn. All purely IMHO, of course.