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Medications that change who we are

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Re: Medications that change who we are

#231
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “other incurable conditions” do doctors not even attempt to treat and simply tell patients to “accept who they are and deal with it”?

You realize that the alternative is telling people to spend the rest of their lives in an irreversible, elaborate fantasy LARP? One which potentially comes with its own burdens and eventually leads to permanent sterilization? I'm not saying don't treat it. I'm saying hormones and plastic surgery do not make a woman, and more sane treatment would acknowledge this fact and teach coping skills much in the same way we ar…

If you don’t support gender transitioning, fine, but don’t pretend that your concern is for the person transitioning as if they don’t understand the implications. Your agenda is painfully clear and has nothing to do with the ethics of prescribing hormones when we don’t fully understand them: “I'm saying hormones and plastic surgery do not make a woman”.

The reality is that we don’t understand any medicine particularly well, but we do our best to treat an endless array of diseases and disorders anyway, because it’s more ethical to attempt to ease pain and discomfort than to ignore suffering.

Also people do regularly get plastic surgery to address aesthetic concerns. Would you advocate that people with cleft lips should simply learn to accept who they are and we should consider it unethical to correct the deformity?

Re: Medications that change who we are

#232

I am very curious about how transgender HRT affects personality. In a sense, HRT is supposed to change who one is, but the personality changes people undergo on it seem underappreciated and not really understood or studied clinically. At least I have not been able to find a published study specifically about about how HRT changes personality. I think not all of it can be attributed to decreased gender dysphoria or pe…

> ...Big Five neuroticism...

It's gonna be really hard to deconvolve hormones from environment. Men and women are treated very differently in our culture; men's and women's behaviors are interpreted very differently; the former having a possible causal relationship with neuroticism, the latter having a possible causal relationship with diagnosis. You'd need a fairly large study involving a large number of trans people who aren't on hrt but pass as well as those who are.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like reading ignorant things like this because it helps show why we really need more classical education in society. If you'd actually read some Plato, as opposed to summaries, I'd be shocked if you could keep the same belief. It's just so damn good for thinking with. But prior to Plato, the Pythagorean Philolaus wrote that sensation/experience comes from the interaction between the soul (greek: psyche) and the bod…

> I like reading ignorant things like this From the HN guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine."

Thank you for appreciating my kind, substantiative and thoughtful disagreement.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make some good points. However that is not what i meant when i said "holistic". As an example, in Ayurveda/TCM, "prophylaxis" is given greater importance than symptomatic treatment. We are what we eat and how we live. The beauty of Western Medicine is that it is highly targeted and therefore provides immediate relief. However, people go overboard with no thought to other factors, consequences and ramifications. T…

I'm asian myself and I am intimately familiar with eastern medicine. You are largely right on western medicine, it is holistic as far as the scientific evidence is relevant. That means if there is no unbiased experiment on the 20 year effects of some effect of some drug then there is no science behind it and therefore no knowledge and no treatment. Causative treatments are established to a degree as close to absolute…

When it comes to the Human Organism and Medicine, in spite of all our advances, things are quite complex, interrelated and not fully understood. While there is a lot of "woo woo" in Traditional Eastern Medicine against which we must guard ourselves, there is still a lot of empirical evidence for it though we may not subscribe to the explanatory models behind them. This is why people/hospitals are trying to introduce the reasonably well understood parts of Yoga, TCM, Ayurveda, Meditation into a more holistic approach towards well being.

The point is not to fixate on some well known negatives but take a deeper look at what has worked over the ages and employ them for good effect regardless of the theoretical models claimed for them.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the stupidity of that idea. There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body are the same thing.

I like reading ignorant things like this because it helps show why we really need more classical education in society. If you'd actually read some Plato, as opposed to summaries, I'd be shocked if you could keep the same belief. It's just so damn good for thinking with. But prior to Plato, the Pythagorean Philolaus wrote that sensation/experience comes from the interaction between the soul (greek: psyche) and the bod…

> If you'd actually read some Plato, as opposed to summaries, I'd be shocked if you could keep the same belief.

I guess that means you're shocked.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asian myself and I am intimately familiar with eastern medicine. You are largely right on western medicine, it is holistic as far as the scientific evidence is relevant. That means if there is no unbiased experiment on the 20 year effects of some effect of some drug then there is no science behind it and therefore no knowledge and no treatment. Causative treatments are established to a degree as close to absolute…

When it comes to the Human Organism and Medicine, in spite of all our advances, things are quite complex, interrelated and not fully understood. While there is a lot of "woo woo" in Traditional Eastern Medicine against which we must guard ourselves, there is still a lot of empirical evidence for it though we may not subscribe to the explanatory models behind them. This is why people/hospitals are trying to introduce…

>When it comes to the Human Organism and Medicine, in spite of all our advances, things are quite complex, interrelated and not fully understood.

And I have said, if you read carefully that some of it still works despite this. This is not the point, the point is the black box test still needs to work despite a garbage theory. ANd my point is, not only is the theory wrong, but there is very little overall scientific evidence for the efficacy of the treatment as well.

>there is still a lot of empirical evidence for it though we may not subscribe to the explanatory models behind them.

There is actually very little scientific and experimental evidence behind it. There is some but compared to the body of experimental work that is western medicine the research on eastern medicine is miniscule.

> This is why people/hospitals are trying to introduce the reasonably well understood parts of Yoga, TCM, Ayurveda, Meditation

The above mentioned things like meditation actually have scientific evidence behind them. You can google it.

>The point is not to fixate on some well known negatives but take a deeper look at what has worked over the ages and employ them for good effect regardless of the theoretical models claimed for them.

That is the problem. There is very little scientific evidence for what has "worked" for eastern medicine. The problem with anecdotal evidence is the placebo effect; people are delusional. Some people believe in scientology and who is it for you to say that a belief in eastern medicine isn't similar? The dividing line is scientific experiment. IF an experiment verifies a hypothesis then it is likely to be real. For efficacy of a treatment to be measured you cannot just ASK people, you have to conduct a massive scientific experiment in a double blind study. This simply has not been done yet for eastern medicine. You do not know the "good" just like you don't know the "negatives" because there is no scientific data.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#237
post #96

I have long wondered about this. In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment and the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects". I had intuitively felt that these medicines must have an overall effect on behaviour which may always not be obvious to the observer unless the difference between the before and after were stark and noticeable. We really…

“In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment” [rant on] I believe the term you’re looking for here is “fabulist bullshit”. “the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects"” Aaaand… No, it doesn’t. SCAM calls it that. Which is ironic, as “Allopathy” is a term coined by Hahnemann to mean “Everything BUT Homeopathy”, and that was in a day when “Western…

WTH ? That is a nice rant but one with some validity :-)

First see my other responses in this thread so i don't have to repeat myself.

>Real medicine does in fact study and treat the whole person.

In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment.

>Medicine [which works] is just a rolling bug-patching process of the most heinously complicated, tightly-coupled, under-documented Big Ball Of Mud known to man

Somewhat True but there are also multiple models/architectures within it all of which gives us a framework to hang everything else off of i.e. there is a method within the madness.

The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them. Two different examples, a) The importance of quieting/calming the mind using Meditation independent of any religious connotations. b) The importance attached to Turmeric which has been validated today by identification of the Curcumin active ingredient.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#238
All I can say is when I realized the only thing that prevents me from thinking negative thoughts about people and things around me, being frustrated at everything for petty reasons I end up forgetting shortly after and demolishing my productivity was whether or not I remember to take my medication, it became a major existential crisis for me. I felt powerless to actually change my situation through my own actions rather than chemical rebalancing which I can't just will into existence.

Of course I only have this crisis if I forget to take my medication.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like reading ignorant things like this From the HN guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine."

Thank you for appreciating my kind, substantiative and thoughtful disagreement.

> Don't be snarky

Re: Medications that change who we are

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument falls apart where you claim something is abundantly clear, when you can't even clearly describe what you think is abundantly clear. You're claiming red light isn't the perception of red. I can be on board with those semantics, but they are just semantics. In that case, I'd say the phenomenon described by the terms is that red light is the electromagnetic radiation in the long range of the visible spectr…

Is it not abundantly clear that a photon is just a photon? What else could it be? > the perception of red is the chemical cascade starting with the stimulation of L-cones and ending with the firing of neurons in the visual cortex. So this quote illustrates the gist of your thinking, but I think you've got some muddled terms. For you there is "red light" and "the perception of red". So for you: "red light" is the phot…

> Is it not abundantly clear that a photon is just a photon? What else could it be?

Well, light can be modeled as either a wave or a particle[1]. When talking about colors, it makes more sense to talk about light using the wave model of light than the particle model of light--not that either way of talking about it is wrong, it's just that the particle model is way more complicated for modeling this particular phenomena.

> "red light" is the photon as well - ie a photon with wavelength between 620-750nm

No. If you're talking about wavelength you should be using the wave model. It absolutely makes sense to say "red light" when you're talking about a wave.

There's no such thing as a red photon because photons don't have color by themselves--red light is made up of many photons, which have a frequency.

It sounds like your argument is basically that you don't know how to represent color with the particle model of light, so you assume the answer is "the mind". Not only can you go learn how to represent color using the particle model, but even if that weren't possible, assuming that anything you don't understand is "the mind" is pretty premature.

> In a sense, you are claiming that this chemical cascade is 2 things: 1: a chemical cascade and 2: the perception of red (i.e. the subjective sensation of looking at red); whereas, I would say the chemical cascade is just a chemical cascade... that's all it is, because of course chemicals can't be chemicals AND sense perceptions - that's the real incorrect leap of faith in your argument.

People who have the chemical cascade experience red. People who don't, don't--even if red light is there (i.e. if they are colorblind). Do you have any reason for believing these are different phenomena?

> You say that I have yet to present an observable phenomenon that is clearly in the mind, but just imagine a red triangle, boom there you have it - that red triangle only exists in the mind. [...]

> If you still disagree with this, tell me where is the red triangle?

It's also in the brain, because the mind is just the brain.

This isn't hypothetical. We can read (very) fuzzy images from people's brains using neural-imaging[2]. I'm not aware of any experiments that specifically has read a red triangle, but I don't see any reason to believe that this image is uniquely in the mind and not the brain.

Again, it seems like you're just defining "the mind" as anything that happens in the brain where you don't know how it happens. And again I'll say, even if we didn't already know how it happens, concluding that this is "the mind" rather than some physical process we haven't yet discovered, is premature.

> it's simply made of qualitatively different material than the brain.

If it's qualitatively different, what are the qualitative differences?

As for the parts of your post I didn't respond to directly: declaring things irreducible, patently absurd, and declaring that you know things, all ex nihilo, is not a persuasive argument.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

[2] https://news.berkeley.edu/2011/09/22/brain-movies/

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