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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

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Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#231

Post by bwb »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #67
bwb wrote: post #28

I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work". I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work. 4 to 6 creative hours seems righ…

Most of my work weeks clock in around 50-60 hours regularly. It's pretty simple how this happens. It's meetings all day and then once meetings are over it's email, documents, admin paperwork, training etc... Here's an example of just last Thursday which was busy but was at least not double booked and had some times I could stop and go to the bathroom, I also wasn't traveling this day which was good: 8-12 - US Senate…

Yep sorry, I misspoke, I meant more non-creative but vital work. I just spent a day doing nothing by CRM work and data entry and used a colorful pejorative :)

I think that is how you get to 60 hours, I don't think that is how you get to 80 hours like I said.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#232

Post by veggieburglar »

howon92 wrote: post #176
nif2ee wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your argument and I appreciate it. But the nature of those low hanging fruit are more complicated today. For example, you can't just recreate Twitter, Facebook, Reddit today in your home with a couple of friends with no solid experience. You similarly can't start most successful SaaS ideas that were started in 2010-2014. Most successful YouTubers started their channels around 2008-2011. This was a time when you…

Snapchat was founded in 2011 when people thought there couldn't be any other successful social media company. On the other hand, Salesforce, an epitome of SAAS, was founded in 1999. I believe there are always business opportunities and I'd argue there are more opportunities today because the space is more complicated and the cost of starting a company is much lower than before.

I don't necessarily disagree with your argument, but Snapchat might not be the best example. Snap has never posted a profit and their stock, even after a rise of almost 275% this calendar year, is still 42% below its IPO price.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#233

Post by simonw »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #198
simonw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

Work isn't always creative though is it? It's often more menial: meetings, learning new APIs, stepping through existing code, trial and error, mentoring, etc. For these your ROI per hour goes down, but your total ROI still goes up even after 5 or even 8 hours. Maybe not for everyone everyday, but for some people some days for sure.

That's why I still believe in 8 hour working days. Three hours for meetings, reading up on things etc - five hours for the hard creative stuff.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#234

Post by simonw »

simonw wrote: post #15
thetrumanshow wrote: post #8

A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second j…

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

Oops, Twitter link should have been https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#235

Post by simonw »

kobayashi wrote: post #22
simonw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

Wrong Twitter link posted. That’s about Apple and RSS

Bah, thanks - missed the edit window. Tweet was meant to be https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#236

Post by dangero »

Crusoe123 wrote: post #208
dangero wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the generally accepted and obvious view, but there seems to be a push from several popular personalities to virtue signal against it in the name of better working conditions. In the process they are accusing startup founders of abusing their workforce if they mention such an idea as working a little extra to get ahead.

As they very well should. If startup founders want to work extra - let them. But when they create a culture where they expect everyone to give the same extreme amount of sacrifice and work while they stand to gain only a fraction of what those who own the capital or have power in running the companies will gain - that is something that should be fought against as vigorously as possible on every level of society - cul…

Wait but what if the founder believes that long hours do in fact get you ahead? What if that is part of what they actually did to get where they are today? Should they lie about it?

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#237

Post by AndrewKemendo »

notacoward wrote: post #227
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is generally the wrong attitude in my opinion. I've done both very technical/creative demanding work and the organizational work as I describe. What you realize after a while is that they are both hard, but in different ways because it's different work.

The question IMO is not whether it's easier or harder, but whether it's more or less sustainable. That in itself is two questions: (1) Is it sustainable in the sense that you can remain productive throughout one day? (2) Is is sustainable in the sense that you can keep doing it day after day? I would say the answer to (1) is generally yes. Meetings usually require continuous partial attention rather than intense focu…

I think you more or less answered your own question here - people succeed at jobs that they can sustain and I concur with that. Shitty leaders who look down on different people for their jobs are just that - shitty leaders.

One caveat I'd add is that I'm an introvert myself and initially found a lot of these meetings and especially conferences, extremely draining.

However I also realized that there were ways to make them not-as-draining. For example, don't go to a conference unless you are a speaker. That reduces the feeling that you need to approach people to make conversation, make small talk etc...

For meetings, set the expectations that there will be concrete and measurable tasks that come out of the meeting, or otherwise don't have them. Just the facts ma'am. It's surprisingly effective, and way more efficient when you cut out the BS.

Things like that I've found reduce the amount of heavy social reading, politics, etc... which are so draining to most introverts like us.

YMMV

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#238

Post by originalbryan2 »

x2f10 wrote: post #213
originalbryan2 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my 20s I worked 80-90 hours for ... 4-6 months. It was day job, then side hustle software that I was very excited about. Now in my late 30s with kids, yeesh. Honestly it's impossible to get 40 hours in some weeks. Edit: no drug use

Is it impossible even with effort or you no longer feel the effort is required and/or necessary?

Some months, with effort, domestic responsibility and my personal health make it impossible. But my whole family has been sick a lot this fall.

Edit: I still feel tremendous pressure to work more/longer.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#239

Post by manigandham »

Retric wrote: post #199
Proziam wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents were living this lifestyle. My dad routinely worked 100+ hour weeks, often sleeping on job sites and very often traveling for work. It kinda makes me chuckle a bit when I hear people say that 'nobody can do 80 hours!' when I spent my entire formative years watching my dad and everyone he knew doing exactly that but doing much harder labor. It really feels to me like people who say this stuff are either ver…

Being at work for 100 hours is different from actually putting in 100 hours of work. I have worked with people that stayed 80 hours a week, but only really worked around 20 hours on average. If your putting around while a 4 hour script runs, you’re there but not actually working during that time.

That's now hot manual labor works. This is the bubble described by the parent comment. You'd be very surprised by how many continuous hours people work globally.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#240

Post by manigandham »

jotm wrote: post #127
whatshisface wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also get hours like that by working multiple low-level service or industrial jobs, or working a lot of overtime at a job that pays overtime. I have known people to do both, and the only thing that really limits it is the cost to your personal life and basic maintenance (relationships, health, home repair, that kind of stuff.) Men with a stay at home wife who is good at managing the home and keeping up relatio…

I've seen too many people happy about overtime... I dunno, I worked 12 hour days for weeks and it was hell. Doing something on the side, anything that makes some extra cash, seems better than straight up overtime.

Overtime is a far better deal. You don't have to commute or switch environments, just continue doing what you're doing (which may not be all that bad) and make a multiplier based on far you go overtime.

Add in holidays and other shifts and some people can double their income doing overtime which would be impossible to pull off with a second job.

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