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Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

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Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#231

Post by wannabedev2 »

greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

I can chime in here, as I am very familiar with Zurich. While there are no extreme high compensations like for the top echelon SD in the SV top companies, the median, truly achievable wage is easy in excess of 120k annually. The housing prices are much lower than around SV, and most importantly, you do not have to live in the city, the public transport system network is very efficient, it is not essential to own a car.

Those are the good parts, however, not all things are good. Everything else is very expensive. Going out to an average restaurant will cost 100 CHF for a dinner for 2. There was a study saying a household with one kid will require 8k CHF a month if you plan to have a holiday and a car. You will have to pay for mandatory insurance etc. Then again, 8k is not that much if both partners work.

Do not forget that the tax rate is very attractive and often there is a so called 13th salary at the end of the year, usually a full month salary. This is not based on KPI's this has been a tradition for a long time. Also, 5 weeks of paid holidays, the US do not know that concept yet. If you add these two to your salary, the numbers suddenly look much better.

In summary, you can have a very good life and put money aside in Zurich if you commute to work by public transport(or small scooter), do not live in the most expensive apartment you can find and so long you do not eat out twice every day, you will be very well off.

Zurich is one of the most beautiful and entertaining cities in the world. The weather is horrible compared to California, but you'll have plenty of money and paid time off work to holiday in sunny and warm destinations. The nearest being southern Switzerland, once you're through the alps, you are in a different climate zone. A 2 hours commute.

And let's not forget the social system. If you earn 10k CHF a month and lose your employment, you are entitled to collect something like 7k gross a month for 1.5 years while looking for the next job.

I hope this gives some perspective, that said, with such a salary, if it's possible to work remotely, I'd chose neither SV nor Zurich.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#232

Post by Fernicia »

kornakiewicz wrote: post #191
CountSessine wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want…

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. It is not. The value fire-fighters, teachers or nurses provide is much higher than, say, an enterprise developer, yet in most places the other earns more.

It's marginal utility, not labour value or labour usefulness that determines wage price. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#233

Post by iamasoftwaredev »

asdfman123 wrote: post #103
greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Also, a lot of the "pros" of living in Switzerland are basically the same as in the US. In any other low-key metropolis (Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Phoenix, Des Moines, whatever) a software developer with 5 years of experience can earn $130k and buy houses for $250k - $350k. If you're single, you can get luxury 1 BD apartments for $1500 in happening parts of town. Plus, in the enterprise world it's very easy t…

> In any other low-key metropolis (Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Phoenix, Des Moines, whatever)

I'd wager the typical city in Switzerland is much more liveable (i.e. not being trapped in a car as you commute to and from suburbs or just get around the horribly laid out car-centric city) than those places.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#234

Post by strken »

kornakiewicz wrote: post #191
CountSessine wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want…

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. It is not. The value fire-fighters, teachers or nurses provide is much higher than, say, an enterprise developer, yet in most places the other earns more.

What's the marginal value of hiring another fire-fighter? I suspect it's a lot lower than the marginal value of hiring another enterprise developer, since firefighting is already fairly well staffed and since hiring professionals cuts into volunteering firefighting organisations.

The same seems like it's true of teachers and nurses. They're seen as a cost centre to be reduced rather than a scarce resource to be fought over.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#235

Post by [deleted] »

mrep wrote: post #201

Wow, talk about making me not want to move to Switzerland. Granted, I'm not in the bay area but... 1. Accommodation prices seem about the same where I live. 2. I work 40 hours a week too 3. 20 minute bus ride for me so no "2 hour commute". 4. 120,000 CHF for a senior? I make over 200,000 and I have less than 4 years of experience. That would be a huge pay cut. 5. 35% income taxes + state? This is just blatantly false…

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#236

Post by blunte »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #122
xz0r wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that means that we can calculate your rent there to be between 30% to 48%. But I guess, just because it is in Switzerland, it should not be outrageous? The article assumes that you would share the flat with others. Sharing with 2 others would mean effective rent is 800-1300 CHF.

Also you don't necessarily have to live in Zürich city... Outside the city or in other parts of Switzerland you can find a decent flat for ~1500 CHF.

People don't realize that a commute in Switzerland is not a terrible or necessarily lengthy event, so living outside the city center is a reasonable choice.

A commute in California or New York or London can be a real drag.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#237

Post by timerol »

HorkHunter wrote: post #91
greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

I'm in Vienna and its pretty normal here to rent for 40-50% of your salary. otherwise you'd move to the far outskirts of the city.

I often hear about how Vienna is a public housing paradise. (ie, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-par..., https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_articl...)

Is it the market-rate units that cost 40-50% of your salary?

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#238

Post by asdfman123 »

iamasoftwaredev wrote: post #233
asdfman123 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, a lot of the "pros" of living in Switzerland are basically the same as in the US. In any other low-key metropolis (Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Phoenix, Des Moines, whatever) a software developer with 5 years of experience can earn $130k and buy houses for $250k - $350k. If you're single, you can get luxury 1 BD apartments for $1500 in happening parts of town. Plus, in the enterprise world it's very easy t…

> In any other low-key metropolis (Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Phoenix, Des Moines, whatever) I'd wager the typical city in Switzerland is much more liveable (i.e. not being trapped in a car as you commute to and from suburbs or just get around the horribly laid out car-centric city) than those places.

In some of those cities, sure, but if you want walkable city center you can find that, too, and just choose to live there.

Living in the suburbs is a choice and certainly not the only option in most cities. If you want to live near a real downtown, it's still way, way, cheaper than living some globally-recognized urban center. Maybe not quite as cool, but way more laid back.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#239

Post by iamasoftwaredev »

saiya-jin wrote: post #140
asdfman123 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, a lot of the "pros" of living in Switzerland are basically the same as in the US. In any other low-key metropolis (Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Phoenix, Des Moines, whatever) a software developer with 5 years of experience can earn $130k and buy houses for $250k - $350k. If you're single, you can get luxury 1 BD apartments for $1500 in happening parts of town. Plus, in the enterprise world it's very easy t…

You obviously never lived in Switzerland. Can't explain all the US-CH differences in few words, but some benefits: better healthcare, better social system, much much safer, actually working public school system, great clean nature on your doorstep, I can be in 2 minutes of drive in beautiful France and 1 hour drive in Italy and rest of Europe is just around the corner. Very health and sport-oriented mentality. Super…

[flagged]

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#240

Post by iamasoftwaredev »

xz0r wrote: post #105
greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

> that means that we can calculate your rent there to be between 30% to 48%. But I guess, just because it is in Switzerland, it should not be outrageous? The article assumes that you would share the flat with others. Sharing with 2 others would mean effective rent is 800-1300 CHF.

So move to Switzerland and have a lower quality of life?
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