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Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

dearstackexchange.com

231–240 of 444 posts

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#231
post #22

While, in the beginning, a very active user, I've long now given up on that network. I can't remember when was the last time I asked a question without being forced to defend it for a period of at least a few hours, why it shouldn't be closed as a duplicate, offtopic or ... It used to be an excellent network, but nowadays it's just script-kiddies-playing-admins/editors playground. It is no longer a productive technic…

When you say 'given up', do you mean you don't ask/answer anymore yourself or also that you don't use it at all?

Anyway, would be interesting to know which part of SE exactly you talk about. I've been sort of active for years on e.g. C++ tag on SO and never had any of those problems for any answer given or question I asked. On the contrary, I got a proper answer within hours. I admit that it happened more than once though that while typing a question I did some extra research and while doing so found the answer, on SO itself, and didn't have to post the question anymore so that rules out duplicates.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#232
post #222

I have read every hn submitted articles about this drama, but I still don't get what this is all about. Maybe because of my english not being the best.

I'll do my best to summarize the situation, at least as well as I understand it.

When speaking in English, it often sounds awkward to repeatedly use the same proper noun in a sentence or paragraph. So, instead of repeated use of the actual noun, a pronoun is used.

When referring to individual people, or to some animals, the most common pronouns to use are "he" or "she", depending on the person being talked about. When referring to a group of people, the typical pronoun is "they". It's also possible to use "they" as a non-gendered pronoun for a single person.

By itself, the mere grammatical fact of these pronouns is not particularly interesting.

However, right now the United States, and other countries, are experiencing social and political tension around a broad range of related topics - how do we treat people of different genders? How do we treat people who are transgender? Or people who don't feel like they're clearly masculine or feminine? Should gender even have a great role in society?

Usage of pronouns has become a particular sticking point during this tension. For example, let's imagine a person named "Pat". Pat was born as a male, but wishes to be identified as a woman. When talking _about_ Pat, I have a few options in how I talk about he/she/them, and which I choose to use will divide me into one of two political camps.

-----

I could refer to Pat as "she", indicating that I respect her choice and identity, which also implies that I find her framework of gender at least tolerable or imaginable.

I could refer to Pat as "they", which is typically not particularly offensive, and some people prefer it. It shows that even if I don't agree with their choice, I want to sidestep awkwardness with them. This lightly shows me as being in the gender-inclusive camp.

I could refer to Pat continuously as "Pat". This would tend to sound awkward, and Pat might wonder why I won't use pronouns to talk about Pat, and might be mildly offended, but it shows I'm at least aware enough of Pat's feelings to try and avoid serious offense.

I could refer to Pat as "he", which would indicate that I do not respect his choice. Pat would likely feel that I don't respect him at all, and that I'm being belligerent in opposing his framework of gender.

-----

It seems like the inciting incident on StackOverflow in particular unfolded as follows:

* StackExchange began to introduce a new policy, intended to promote being inclusive of people of different genders and gender expressions.

* If I understand correctly, the policy indicated that writing should strive to be gender neutral. I believe in particular that this meant that the pronoun "they" should be preferred.

* One particular Moderator (by the username Cellio) of the site attempted to clarify, about whether writing that _avoided_ pronouns rather than using pronouns, would be allowed.

* _In Particular_, Cellio was concerned that the usage of the "they" pronoun to refer to individual people could be confusing to non-native English speakers, as "they" is more commonly used to refer to groups of people.

* Drama ensued, in which the stance of Cellio was cast as ideologically equivalent to the stance of someone who would intentionally use the wrong pronouns. (i.e., because Cellio was indicating that they did not wish to refer to a hypothetical Pat as "they", the assumption was that Cellio would refer to Pat as "he", even though Pat would prefer to be referred to by either "she" or "they")

* StackExchange thus fired the Cellio.

* Other people found this firing to be unfair, with a few reasons for finding it unfair:

People who agree with the ideological framework of gender which promotes inclusivity and sensitivity felt like the fired moderator was actually being quite reasonable, and that this was an over-reaction or misunderstanding.

People who don't agree with that ideological framework of gender see this as another example of an opposing political camp colonizing more spaces.

There are a handful of people who believe the firing was reasonable, but I don't believe I can adequately express their viewpoint.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#233
post #28

Shouldn’t the CTO fire the person who was directly responsible for firing Monica? Why isn’t that part of it?

I see firing in such a case as a cop-out, a cowardly way to appease mob-mentality.

In this case if the employee responsible for firing the moderator did such acts repeatedly despite management warnings than perhaps it's a good idea to fire that person. However this doesn't seem to be the case, the CTO correctly assumed responsibility in his apology of green-lighting the moderator's firing.

He does the right thing, in my opinion, by promising a better process that wouldn't lead to such a hurtful (and seemingly unfair) dismissal.

You don't fire an employee for mistakenly deleting your production database, you update your process so this cannot happen (at least not by accident).

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#234
post #15

It's incredible that pronouns can bring down an entire community. Pick you battles please, we're losing good things because of this silly conflict.

It'll be here soon enough and it'll be interesting to see how it's handled, especially as the parties pushing for change tend to apply pressure as a group to those in authority (in our tech world, project leaders and moderators, but beyond it's appeals to universities or the media…) and flag/downvote (or worse) against those who show any dissent.

The Opal project's little kerfuffle[0] a while back comes to mind, and the subsequent adoption by several Ruby projects of the Contributor Covenant[1] (of which, it never seems to be applied to its supporters - maybe that's just me being cynical). It convinced me that the best way to go is no code of conduct (I favour the delightfully named NCoC[2]) for most projects.

[0] https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

[1] https://github.com/bundler/bundler/issues/3444

[2] https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#235
post #232
post #222

I have read every hn submitted articles about this drama, but I still don't get what this is all about. Maybe because of my english not being the best.

I'll do my best to summarize the situation, at least as well as I understand it. When speaking in English, it often sounds awkward to repeatedly use the same proper noun in a sentence or paragraph. So, instead of repeated use of the actual noun, a pronoun is used. When referring to individual people, or to some animals, the most common pronouns to use are "he" or "she", depending on the person being talked about. Whe…

Thanks. This whole debate is more than strange for me, having a primary language (hungarian) which do not use gender pronouns at all when referring to a person/object.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#236
post #13

Honest Question: Why continue to support stack exchange through this? They have shown themselves to be disingenuous at best. They are now profiting off free labor. They started it because ExpertsExchange was hiding answers. They rode the high horse to hypocrisy. Why continue helping people like that succeed? Why not just start a new one? Leave en masse to a new playground. Speak with your answers. Show the powers tha…

SO has so much information already, I think it would be frustrating for people to have to walk away from it and start from scratch, and a huge loss to the community (or anyone who has ever googled "how to do X in lang Y"). However when your community is built on top of a VC-funded for-profit company this is always a risk you take. Maybe the only solution is starting over with a non-profit model.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#237

I don’t understand why gender/pronouns is even being discussed. Someone’s personal feelings don’t really have any place in a question/answers site. It’s fine to respect a persons feelings and such when talking to a person but when answering a question or asking the question. The gender/pronoun is irrelevant.

The folks moderating SE are very pedantic about the wording of passages. Once I called SE a "forum", and I was politely told not to call SE a "forum". I would really hate to be a person that is not very fluent in English and trying to interact with SE.

One of my latest questions got as first comment : "Please use English punctuation when writing in English."

Certainly polite but a bit jarring as a non-native speaker that feels fluent. Also a bit nonsensically-bureaucratic : I made the mistake because I didn't know any better, after the comment I still couldn't correct the mistake because I still didn't know any better, I wasn't even sure what rule of punctuation I had wronged.

I would've preferred a direct edit instead of a comment prompting though I guess that can be seen as worse by some people.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#238
post #132
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one thing that I love about SE is that everyone is very professional. almost all answers are either sourced or can easily be seen to be correct. what I am worried is that if a lot of the normal mods quit and our replaced with new mods, who may be more political, SE will turn into Reddit where leftist politics prevail in all of the major subreddits and most responses to factual questions consist of options or unsource…

Give https://dev.to/stackoverflow/what-a-very-bad-day-at-work-tau... a read - the comment to which Sara replied and the response given. The reddit future is a very real possibility.

What's the "reddit future" a reference to?

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who answers quite a few quesitons on SO I'd really like to see posts that were perceived as wrongfully closed to see if I agree (haha) and also to see how to fix the system. Of course I have no hope that S.O. will change anything. When they started their "be nice" campaign I suggested the "CLOSED: This is a duplicate" message should be changed to "CONGRATS: This appears to be a duplicates so you win! There…

> As someone who answers quite a few quesitons on SO I'd really like to see posts that were perceived as wrongfully closed to see if I agree (haha) and also to see how to fix the system. This person[1] was getting unexpected results when calling is_integer. According to the duplicate, the solution is that they should call is_integer... which is what they were doing. The original close voter commented 'sorry I didn't…

>The question was answered in the comments

It's lucky that the person who answered had enough carma to write comments. SO's job seems to be to prevent users from answering questions.

Re: Dear Stack Exchange, Inc.

#240
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this cry against moderators. These people are volunteerily giving their time to keep quality bar high without any payment. If these people weren't there then SO will be full of duplicates, off-topic and opinion based Q&A just like Quora. A general tendency I have seen is just to ask (often poorly stated) questions without doing simple search to see if it is already answered. Someone needs to respec…

I think SO is poorly designed as a system. It certainly does encourage people to ask not-so-great questions. It doesn't handle them particularly well. And then expects people to clean up the mess for free. Those people of course feel stressed and overwhelmed, so are inclined to be rude, aggressive, and hasty in their decisions. Like ldigas, I long ago gave up on SO because of bad moderation experiences. I'm grudgingl…

SO is marvelously designed and I often discuss this with friends and colleagues. First imagine this: Experts who are often paid big dollars per hour are coming over and spending time in answering your questions for no apparent reason. The quality of content is very high when you compare with any other Q&A or even general social media website. I often find 50% of my programming answers at SO. If there is an accepted highly voted answer for a technical question, I would probably have better than 80% of chance that it works for me. I have saved enormous amount of time because of SO. It has accelerated my learning by 2X or 3X on specific language or framework. In many ways, general productivity of developers and in some cases their entire professional careers hinges on quality and content of SO. Now think about it: Why these highly paid people coming over to answer your questions? Why SO has not already became trash like many of its other predecessors and contemporaries? What is the magic resisting power it has?

The answer lies in its magnificent design. SO has community based voting for almost everything. Almost everything is gamified. There are people literally writing essays on why everyone should vote them to be an "officer" for X and how they will work hard on keeping quality bar high. There is an extra-ordinary passion in what they do. Its HN on steroids but with much better mechanics. It is almost completely decentralized and operates without needing people blessed with special dictatorial powers 99.9% of the times. Again, lot of these volunteers are highly paid IT/tech folks, not your ordinary 8chan Joe. They could have been doing anything else in their free time instead of technical answering questions at SO. This is much harder than dishing out fact-free opinions on non-technical websites as armchair expert. Again, no one gets paid for anything they do on SO. This is the beauty of gamification and extremely well designed community driven completely decentralized governance at its extreme. Its almost magical to me and I haven't found any other website on Internet achieve it at same scale and importance.

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