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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#231

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

hos234 wrote: post #81
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #13

Serious question: I've got a couple of mainland Chinese acquaintances on my social networks, who are real people but also busily spouting Chinese government propaganda. As the article says, I don't expect them to change their views overnight, but I would like to plant some seeds of doubt. Any suggestions for links to suitable content? (Ideally accessible from behind the GFW, although most can VPN outside it.) For exa…

You don't "jar" people into Learning anything. That is why the late night comedian brigade and the bombastic news reader class (don't call them journalists) have never managed to change anyone's minds, irrespective of how many years of likes, laughs and claps they get from their own fan clubs. It's true of the left and the right. Jaring (blaming/shaming/guilt triping) or shaking people up is not a teaching technique…

I'm not sure how you read all that into my comment. I was simply asking for examples of good articles to send to them.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#232

Post by vinni2 »

iamshs wrote: post #4

First time I got an accurate map of India was when I stepped out of it. Whole of Kashmir is shown as Indian territory in all books and newspapers, even the area that is under administration of China and Pakistan. It was quite something. Other aspects opened up too, but the map thing was quite outrageous example. With international media availability, graphics have become better now thankfully.

Same here after seeing whole of Kashmir as part of India in all the maps for my entire, I couldn’t understand and felt even angry that the west and other countries don’t recognize this.

I now understand how it spurs nationalism and cause misunderstandings.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#233

Post by shkkmo »

dirtyid wrote: post #225
shkkmo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Biased reporting that selectively misrepresents Chinese perspectives and in this case, deliberate omissions Was there bias in the reporting? sure. Is there bias against China in the MSM? sure. That isn't a rebuttal. > >The editor claimed that during their talks, he explained to Zhang how much effort the publication put into fact-checking and confirming references. But none of these went into the final piece. This i…

I was careless to label the response as a rebuttal. The merit and significance of the response for me was the contextualizing of the original New Yorker piece under a pattern of western MSM bias designed designed to undermine and dismiss Chinese perspectives. College Daily is the equivalent of Buzzfeed / Gawker. They don't do good reporting, I'm aware of the controversies surrounding the brand. But to portray it as s…

I frankly see less wrong with that headline than I see wrong with most headlines today. The term "Post-Truth" as an accurate descriptor of College Daily seems to have come directly from Lin:

> Pressed to articulate the identity of his publication, Lin used the phrase “post-truth,” which he attributed to the New York Times, to express his belief that the true essence of things is fundamentally unknowable and that the meaning of the news of the day depends on the spin one chooses to put on it.

EDIT: The article itself also makes a point of including Chinese with perspectives on College Daily.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#235

Post by EarthMephit »

markus_zhang wrote: post #70
PixyMisa wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a one-party state where even the army belongs to the party. It's possible to imagine something worse; we've had plenty of examples, unfortunately. It's easy to imagine something better.

I'd love to imagine, but in reality TBH I don't see a lot of positive examples. If you hate the one-party idea, just think one more layer -- there are factions inside the party, probably more than 2 actually.

New Zealand, all the Nordic countries, many western democracies all provide very good examples of good government without jailing people who speak up against their rulers and without strict censorship laws

They are all really nice countries to live in too

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#236

Post by zawerf »

cthalupa wrote: post #165
cassbot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

The Kent State shooting is taught in almost all high school history classes. Not sure how you missed it. It's also a totally different scale - 4 vs. a number in the hundreds to thousands. We don't even know the numbers for sure because it's been clamped down so massively, vs. Kent State, where we know exactly what happened.

America has had so many shootings you can't really cover them all. For example the one I was never taught was the Greenwood Massacre despite its scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#237

Post by brigandish »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #159
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. They've watched as China has gradually taken control of the governing body, the media, the financial management and the police. Each transpired more or less over a number of years, but each was also worrisome and that worry and anxiety pent up. The trigge…

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs l…

It seems to me to be quite the assumption that in order to fight for a prize you must expect you can win.

There are plenty of examples throughout history, let alone in any of the many incidents of competition happening today - from sport all the way to war - of the opposite.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#238

Post by cthalupa »

dragonsh wrote: post #169
cthalupa wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different. I don't think it's clear that the protestors started the violence. Most reports seem to indicate otherwise. I also don't know that it's reasonable to expect people who were born and raised in HK when the gover…

> I don't think it's clear that the protestors started the violence. Most reports seem to indicate otherwise. Its clear from the videos of protest supporters and media outlet without China's influence like BBC, CNN, The Guardian that there was violence in the protest (not small enough to be ignored). This is just deflecting the reality to create confusion. Hong Kong is China according to handover and follows "Chinese…

>Its clear from the videos of protest supporters and media outlet without China's influence like BBC, CNN, The Guardian that there was violence in the protest (not small enough to be ignored). This is just deflecting the reality to create confusion.

Only if you ignore the fact that government encouraged (and rewarded) counter-protestors were attacking them in the subways on the way to and from the initial peaceful protests.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#239

Post by brigandish »

markus_zhang wrote: post #163
NoodleIncident wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more. I'm neither educated nor motivated enough to argue with most of this. But preventing China from punishing HK people according to China's laws is the _entire point_ of the protests, is it not?

It might be legitimate for a western people e.g. you may be used to get different laws in different levels of government, but it's utterly unthinkable for the Chinese. The fact that HK even keeps foreign judges and officials pretty much surprised a lot of Chinese.

If Hong Kongers really are Chinese then, on the contrary, it's thinkable.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#240

Post by pimmen »

markus_zhang wrote: post #178
guardiangod wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. So did the Soviet Union. They lifted hundreds of millions of people from the ruinous World World 2 to a modern industrial society. It's what happened after _that_ that warrants concern. Another argument is that, yes, CCP did lift most of the population out of subsistence poverty, but can another Party do better? Can the Ta…

For your last question. Can you swear to the police or even hit him with you hand without much fear? You can do that in China...

I live in Sweden and yes, absolutely, I can do that. I've seen people swear towards the police and absolutely nothing happened.

Assaulting someone by hitting them however is not a freedom, you're violating someone else's freedom of not being harmed. Which is not what the post you're responding to was mentioning.

It looks like you want to steer the discussion away from free speech, because you know the West has that and China doesn't, towards an argument that if you can't do anything you want in the West it's not really free. Which has nothing to do with China.

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