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The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

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Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#231

Post by JKCalhoun »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #174
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The really irritating thing about the 'solve it all at once' argument is that electric cars, in a very real way, are the keystone that lets the entire arch support itself. Renewable energy sources are already the cheapest ways of generating electricity at certain times , the trouble is that those aren't always when the electricity is needed. Energy storage makes investment in renewables much more profitable. The prob…

The author talks about a lot more than the cost of energy to power the car. For one, there is the cost in energy of building and maintaining the roads.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#232

Post by maxsilver »

irq11 wrote: post #152
theworld572 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, while you sit there waiting for the perfect solution (which is completely unrealistic) people actively working on real solutions. > spending billions on something that gets you from 100 to 99.9 you're wasting time and energy that you don't have. Of course those numbers are just made up but they are also very far from reality. Solutions to climate change have actually been ranked in terms of total cost and total a…

Do you know what the #1, most significant thing any of us can do to reduce climate change? Have one fewer child. Nothing else even comes close. It’s a simple fact. It’s easy to do. But nobody wants to do that. It’s far less painful to pretend that we can keep the Titanic from sinking by making sure we sip our boat drinks from metal straws. The point of the post is that we’re trying to consume our way out of a consump…

> Have one fewer child. (is the best way to reduce climate change) But nobody wants to do that.

I mean, a small-but-growing number of young adults are already doing exactly that.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/some-millennials-climat...

https://qz.com/1590642/these-millennials-are-going-on-birth-...

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-americans-worry-...

> The point of the post is that we’re trying to consume our way out of a consumption problem,

I don't think that's true. People are trying to find better ways to solve the minimum amount of consumption they need to continue to exist. That's not the same thing as what you've described, that's not "consuming our way out".

People aren't buying EVs because they want to vacation all the time and/or take fun extra road trips 24/7. It's mainly about "I have to be able to get to Work/School/Home in a quick and safe manner, because capitalism demands it for my survival. How can I emit as little CO2 into the air as possible, while still meeting the requirements a capitalist nation demands of me. Which of these solutions can I afford?"

> it talks about family planning for the third world...something other people can do, so that you don’t have to change your life.

Because many "first world" nation birthrates are already abstaining pretty significantly. In the US specifically, birthrates have fallen to all-time record lows - https://money.cnn.com/2013/09/06/news/economy/birth-rate-low...

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#233

Post by JKCalhoun »

theworld572 wrote: post #137
Barrin92 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is to figure out how to change the very fundamental levers of the system in a way that enables change on a scale that matters. The individual consumption lens is going to accomplish nothing. If you could move an entire country from being car dependent to being largely car free, by pushing rapid urbanisation and transit and you put 20 car drivers onto a train or a bus, then we're starting to talk a…

So, while you sit there waiting for the perfect solution (which is completely unrealistic) people actively working on real solutions. > spending billions on something that gets you from 100 to 99.9 you're wasting time and energy that you don't have. Of course those numbers are just made up but they are also very far from reality. Solutions to climate change have actually been ranked in terms of total cost and total a…

> So, while you sit there waiting for the perfect solution (which is completely unrealistic) people actively working on real solutions.

The author acknowledges electric cars are a modest improvement.

And who is working on the better solution?

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#234

Post by [deleted] »

Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

[deleted]

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#235

Post by irq11 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #222
irq11 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what the #1, most significant thing any of us can do to reduce climate change? Have one fewer child. Nothing else even comes close. It’s a simple fact. It’s easy to do. But nobody wants to do that. It’s far less painful to pretend that we can keep the Titanic from sinking by making sure we sip our boat drinks from metal straws. The point of the post is that we’re trying to consume our way out of a consump…

> Nothing else even comes close. According to this logic the real number one thing you could do is to kill yourself, but it fails for exactly the same reason. You're just measuring the impact and not the cost. Doing one thing with a large impact and an even larger cost is worse than doing three things whose total impact is more and total cost is less than that of the one thing. Especially since in this context they s…

Only if you equate “having fewer children” to “killing yourself”, which is transparently incorrect, not to mention tasteless.

However, the responses to this simple fact continue to be enlightening: people would rather commit all sorts of tortured fallacies of reasoning than change their lifestyles in any meaningful way.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#236

Post by Goronmon »

addicted wrote: post #142
theworld572 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So whats the alternative? Do nothing at all? If you have $100k left to pay on your mortgage, and somebody offers you $5k towards the mortgage are you going to tell them they're offering you a "false hope because you'd still have $95k left to pay"? EDIT: This is also known as the "nirvana fallacy": because the solution is not perfect - that means it is worthless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

That’s not what the original author of the article is claiming from how I read it. He’s claiming that sure, take the 5k, but don’t let that fool you into believing you’re done. You still have to plan on finding the other 95k.

He’s claiming that sure, take the 5k, but don’t let that fool you into believing you’re done. You still have to plan on finding the other 95k.

Specifically, from reading through the rest of the site, the author seems to be arguing that we need to give up technology and go back to farming with our neighbors. Oh and no entertainment either, just working on sustaining your existence.

Edit: Someone downvoted me, but in another article one of the things the author states we must do is quit any job where you are paid and start working locally to help your community directly. Which means just about anyone reading Hacker News needs to leave their job right this moment.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#237

Post by [deleted] »

karthikb wrote: post #163
Barrin92 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is to figure out how to change the very fundamental levers of the system in a way that enables change on a scale that matters. The individual consumption lens is going to accomplish nothing. If you could move an entire country from being car dependent to being largely car free, by pushing rapid urbanisation and transit and you put 20 car drivers onto a train or a bus, then we're starting to talk a…

>If you could move an entire country from being car dependent to being largely car free, by pushing rapid urbanisation and transit While these are the “right” solutions, they occur over decades. Planning for any rail line, then constructing, takes over a decade. Even in the environmentalist San Francisco Bay Area. Even bus lines. Try a google of “Van Ness BRT” to get a sense for how slow infrastructure projects work.…

[deleted]

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#238

Post by Forge36 »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #174
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The really irritating thing about the 'solve it all at once' argument is that electric cars, in a very real way, are the keystone that lets the entire arch support itself. Renewable energy sources are already the cheapest ways of generating electricity at certain times , the trouble is that those aren't always when the electricity is needed. Energy storage makes investment in renewables much more profitable. The prob…

The interesting thing about electric cars is that many of them sorry scheduled charging (my charging station also supports remote configuration of when I can charge). If my electric provider was willing (and able) to control when I could charge my car, they could use the the batteries to level out peaks in production to a degree.

Off peak charging already exists today, however there aren't enough electric cars to make utilities heavily incentivise of peak charging solutions (it would only make sense for me to do so if my car was fully electric and not a hybrid due to initial installation costs)

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#240

Post by JKCalhoun »

karthikb wrote: post #163
Barrin92 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is to figure out how to change the very fundamental levers of the system in a way that enables change on a scale that matters. The individual consumption lens is going to accomplish nothing. If you could move an entire country from being car dependent to being largely car free, by pushing rapid urbanisation and transit and you put 20 car drivers onto a train or a bus, then we're starting to talk a…

>If you could move an entire country from being car dependent to being largely car free, by pushing rapid urbanisation and transit While these are the “right” solutions, they occur over decades. Planning for any rail line, then constructing, takes over a decade. Even in the environmentalist San Francisco Bay Area. Even bus lines. Try a google of “Van Ness BRT” to get a sense for how slow infrastructure projects work.…

Yes, you are in agreement with the author — do both.

Anyone who has been to Tokyo knows that you can survive without a car.

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