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Python Is Eating the World

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Re: Python Is Eating the World

#231

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

What I find worse about Python than other languages is the lack of tooling and a relatively small collection of libs - many of which are half way done. In a last assignment, we decided Python is at most a hobby language. Python is great for machine learning because most research was conducting using this language, and as such, tooling is available. I would use it at most as an API exposing ML but that's pretty much it.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#232

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

I am about to hit a decade of python experience. I work with it daily, all my major codebases are written in it. I hate it. It has an ok object system which is possibly its only redeeming quality. I found Racket about 4 years ago, and any new project that I work on will be in Racket or CL. I could go on at length about the happy path mentality of python and the apologists who are too ignorant of other people's use ca…

Thanks for sharing, it certainly makes me feel better about my troubles with accepting python. And "the happy path" might be a state you spend a /minority/ of your time in, depending on project. So first you spend 10% of your time to fix the 80% of easy features, but the tricky stuff can be more awful than it should be.

And packages. I thought I was just stupid, but thankfully there was more to it.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#234

It's so refreshing to not see anyone here whining about Python forcing them to indent their code properly. The kind of people who think that's a PROBLEM instead of a FEATURE really should not be ever writing any new code, and instead should be punished by forcing them to maintain other people's code written with that same lazy misguided attitude, until they recognize how self indulgent, inconsiderate, and disrespectf…

The best, brightest and most informed/experienced people who do not think it is a good idea for significant whitepace to be the determiner of syntactic nesting do not hold that position because they would like to inflict badly formatted code on their maintainers. You've invented a stupendously silly strawman.

That's a stupendously anonymous appeal to authority you've made there, and it's unclear what argument you're actually saying without some explicit parenthesis around all those deeply nested phrases, or some kind of grammatical diagram.

Can you please restate how we disagree in a few simple sentences? Are there any names or links or citations or concrete examples you could add to support your argument and help us respect your authority?

Speaking of best, brightest and most informed/experienced people:

Have you ever used Dave Winer's outliner based scripting language, "Frontier"? Since the syntax of the scripting language is actually a structured outline, it's impossible to indent your code improperly. It's not that white space is significant, it's that no white space or brackets or begin/end keywords are even necessary, because your code is simply an outline.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20425970

After the success of MORE (an outliner and slide renderer for the Mac), he went on to develop a scripting language whose syntax itself (for both code and data) was an outline.

Kind of like Lisp with open/close triangles instead of parens!

It had one of the most comprehensive implementation of Apple Events client and server support of any Mac application, and was really useful for automating other Mac apps, earlier and in many ways better than AppleScript.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UserLand_Software#Frontier

http://frontier.userland.com/

Then XML came along, and he integrated support for XML into the outliner and programming language, and used Frontier to build "Aretha", "Manila", and "Radio Userland".

http://manila.userland.com/

http://radio.userland.com/

He used Frontier to build a pioneering fully programmable content management system, blogging and podcasting platform, with a dynamic HTTP server, a static HTML generator, structured XML editing, RSS publication and syndication, XML-RPC client and server, OPML import and export, and much more.

He basically invented and pioneered outliners, RSS, OPML, XML-RPC, blogging and podcasting along the way.

Frontier certainly had its problems, but it was enormously successful. I think it's a good idea to learn from Dave Winer's experiences successfully designing and using practical powerful scripting languages.

Dave Winer's second outliner screencast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgUjis_fUkk

Dave Winer's the many lives of Frontier screencast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlN-L88KScw

Dave Winer on The Open Web, Blogging, Podcasting and More:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLX415mHfX0

>UserLand's first product release of April 1989 was UserLand IPC, a developer tool for interprocess communication that was intended to evolve into a cross-platform RPC tool. In January 1992 UserLand released version 1.0 of Frontier, a scripting environment for the Macintosh which included an object database and a scripting language named UserTalk. At the time of its original release, Frontier was the only system-level scripting environment for the Macintosh, but Apple was working on its own scripting language, AppleScript, and started bundling it with the MacOS 7 system software. As a consequence, most Macintosh scripting work came to be done in the less powerful, but free, scripting language provided by Apple.

>UserLand responded to Applescript by re-positioning Frontier as a Web development environment, distributing the software free of charge with the "Aretha" release of May 1995. In late 1996, Frontier 4.1 had become "an integrated development environment that lends itself to the creation and maintenance of Web sites and management of Web pages sans much busywork," and by the time Frontier 4.2 was released in January 1997, the software was firmly established in the realms of website management and CGI scripting, allowing users to "taste the power of large-scale database publishing with free software."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPML

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML-RPC

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#235

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

Disclaimer, I am a data scientist I feel the complete opposite. I really enjoy working with python over any other language. R does linear models and time series better and matlab has its charm, but overall I prefer python. Python is so easy to read and quick to program in. I am so glad I am not in the Java/C++ world anymore, but I know people in different roles have to deal with different issues.

> I really enjoy working with python over any other language.

I assume you mean, "over any other language I have tried" ?

As someone with a mathematical background myself, I am always surprised at how many data scientists and quants are ignoring more mathematically principled languages like F#, OCaml and Haskell.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#236
post #12

Considering Python can power the largest web sites (Netflix, Instagram), I don’t understand why there’s so much use of much more complicated platform/languages (eg java, .net)? Note: I am an amateur which is likely the reason for my ignorance.

You can do anything in anything. Everything boils down to trade offs for the problem or company at hand. I can say with Java and .NET shops, it's usually because the company has heavily invested in Java and .NET infrastructure, process, automation, tooling, monitoring, etc. If there are certifications involved, I also know for a fact that Microsoft feeds big discounts on expensive products (SQL Server) depending on h…

It isn't just the company's heavy investment, it is the community's.

The availability of good, tested, performant OSS libraries available in Java is unparalelled.

People talk about languages like Python being "faster" to develop in because they're easier to write. This is true until you need a solid concurrency friendly loading cache or a DB connection pool that works at scale and in Java that's just adding a dependency that you know you can trust.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#237
post #12

Considering Python can power the largest web sites (Netflix, Instagram), I don’t understand why there’s so much use of much more complicated platform/languages (eg java, .net)? Note: I am an amateur which is likely the reason for my ignorance.

A great deal of Netflix is Java, which is why a great deal of OSS Java libs were written by Netflix.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#238

There ware a time when I wondered if I should learn Ruby or Python. These days, unless I'm going to be a Rails dev, hands-down Python.

I was a Ruby programmer for a long time, but I think the world has moved on. Nowadays, I want a language with some type checking, and Ruby is extremely hostile to any kind of static analysis. Rails was pretty exciting as a replacement for how we built websites in the perl/php era, but now that React has taken over, Rails feels weirdly bloated. I would probably choose Typescript for basically everything now.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop using flake8. The original PEP 8 document doesn't even recommend 80 characters anymore. Pylint and mypy and black are way more useful.

I sure do enjoy watching people hyper-fixate on a tiny thing. I'm not sure who you think you're helping by doing this, but it isn't me.

> Every moment working with python (and that infernal pep-8 linter insisting 80 characters is a sensible standard in 2019) increases my burnout by 100x.

You hyper-fixated on that tiny thing. It increases your burnout 100x, remember?

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#240
post #219
post #150

It's such a great language, and so incredibly slow :-/

Probably a kind of premature optimization on my part, but this is why I chose Golang over Python as my primary language. Maybe one day Python will have its own compiler without having to drop into writing C, who knows? For know I think the features of Go are just more attractive than those of Python.

Python has a compiler without dropping into C (cython).. but it's mostly used these days for glue code between c and Python, or for small bits of code that need extra optimization.

There is also Rpython and pypy

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