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Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

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Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#231

Post by 18pfsmt »

BurningFrog wrote: post #181
npongratz wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes... I've been lucky not to experience this myself, but I imagine it is bad to experience the "different outcomes" firsthand when the governance system -- novel as it might appear from a distance -- has foundations in violent suppression of individual freedom.

Of course. Then again, when some lunatic American colonists tried an alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil, it worked out surprisingly well. I guess what I most of all am arguing against is unified world government.

I think most reasonable people agree with the idea of pluralism, and benefit to diverse approaches to governance. However, I think your original take ignores the fact that China has stood on the shoulders of Western liberalism and the 20th century innovation it has produced. IP theft and mercantile trade policies can only work when existing alongside an innovative and free enterprise system which they can exploit for unilateral benefit.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#232

Post by Ididntdothis »

mLuby wrote: post #221
SubiculumCode wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your whole argument is based on fatalism, you might as well say so....because right now you assume the conclusion.

It doesn't look like fatalism to me; the argument is based on the bandwagon effect and how dramatic outcomes can be arrived at through incremental changes.

It's the slow erosion of values. I remember a time when people would "never do online banking", now pretty much everybody does it. Some years ago nobody would have thought it possible that the border agent may ask for social media accounts or decrypt your phone. Now they do it. It's a very slow progression that may take decades but it's happening everywhere.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#233

Post by seanmcdirmid »

baybal2 wrote: post #167
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you would have much problems in Urumqi these days, the problems only start when you leave the big city. Is Urumqi really an international hub? I can’t imagine anyone flying through that city for any trip that didn’t originate or terminate in China. Chengdu is much more of the hub these days.

Well, it is. The airport is past gigantic for the city of its size, and landing fees are said to be quite low. I think nearly all companies flying narrowbodies from Europe to China do stopover here, except for Central Asian airlines who have a natural option of doing stopover in home countries. I flew through it once, and now I will never do it ever again... I do feel that bigger name European airlines opting to rero…

Who is flying narrow bodies between Europe and China? Moscow (via Aeroflot or whatever) works better for trips to Europe given earth curvature. The only nonstops I can find are Moscow, St Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Baku, Astana, Tbilisi, which all makes sense, most of those are Central Asia or almost so, and then Russia. What am I missing?

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#234

Post by cronix »

yazan94 wrote: post #201
cronix wrote: post #25

[flagged]

As per Marx and other early socialist/communist philosophers in the mid-late 1800's, socialist was generally voluntary and supposed to be a bottom-up movement. Don't confuse human, power-hungry implementations with the underlying philosophy. Plenty of democratic countries in Europe skew socialist to some degree - no boom-sticks required to 'keep people in line'

> Don't confuse human, power-hungry implementations with the underlying philosophy

Why not? I mean, when the philosophy is actually put into practice, more often than not it leads to totalitarianism and millions of deaths. I really don't care what it says on paper. That doesn't mean a damn thing lol. I care about the concrete results when it's actually carried out to conclusion. Most people don't like to be micromanaged to that level. It goes against the human spirit and that usually leads to bad things.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#236

Post by wang_li »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #197
redwards510 wrote: post #192

If the US started doing this (scanning phones for islamic terrorism files) to foreigners at the border, would you care? If it was just a scan and no data was harvested? I believe strongly in the right to privacy, but I have to admit, I do not want anyone coming into my country who has beheading videos on their phone. Unless they are a journalist or something, obviously.

How many terrorists have entered US territory through an airport with a beheading video on their phone and then carried out an attack on US soil? Answer: approximately zero How many terrorists would be deterred by this policy? Answer: none How many ordinary people would be more likely to carry out attacks or harbour resentment towards the USA because of policies like these? Answer: more than 0

> How many ordinary people would be more likely to carry out attacks or harbour resentment towards the USA because of policies like these?

Someone who hoards beheading videos is not ordinary and it's perfectly in line with the international norms to be able to exclude undesirable people from entering into a country. E.g. Canada won't let people who have past criminal convictions enter, like a DUI.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#237

Post by cronix »

xenospn wrote: post #125
cronix wrote: post #25

[flagged]

Look up 'Kibbutz'. Communities in Israel that are completely socialist while being fully democratic, and have been there for over 100 years. No gunpoint involved.

That's a great, small, single example. How often does it work out like that?

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#238

Post by dang »

bduerst wrote: post #150
panarky wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US ... This style of argument is deflection, and it gets us nowhere. It's very effective in redirecting the focus away from one bad actor and onto another bad actor, though.

Call it what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

"Whataboutism" breaks the HN guidelines against shallow dismissals and calling names in arguments. This word is a lazy way of saying that comparables aren't relevant, and is invariably used to block information that others are trying to add.

In reality, comparables sometimes are and sometimes aren't relevant. You have to make that argument case by case for it to have any meaning. Invoking a generic word as if it magically decides the matter is just the sort of thing the HN guidelines ask commenters not to do.

To pick an example from another, hopefully distant enough, flamewar topic: if someone complains that dynamic programming languages have runtime errors and someone replies, "what about null pointer exceptions in $static-lang?", it's reasonable to argue about whether and how that is comparable. What's not reasonable is to exclaim "Whataboutism! The topic is errors in dynamic languages. Stop trying to change the subject." That amounts to "you can't say that because I spoke first", and that's not how conversation works. The question of what's relevant is an intimate part of the discussion itself. It's not something that whoever-spoke-first gets to control. Indeed, if anyone did control that, they would have the power to control the entire conversation. Past explanations for anybody who wants more:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19862258

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19471386

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17802156

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17748301

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#239

Post by bduerst »

theslurmmustflo wrote: post #153
bduerst wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Can you explain what's wrong with whataboutism?

> Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

Like GP said, it derails discussions into talking about a different bad actor than the actual one committing the bad behavior, while (intentional or not) minimizing said behavior. In short, just because the bad behavior exists elsewhere does not justify doing the bad behavior, or makes it any less bad, and the act of pointing it out can be a poor attempt at distraction from culpability.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#240

Post by Japhy_Ryder »

iiuuhhggff wrote: post #122
Japhy_Ryder wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is grasping at straws. If you think the situation in US is anywhere remotely close to China, you are either under the influence of severe propaganda, or just don't know what's actually going on in both countries. China has no actual rule of law and is a de facto authoritarian dictatorship.

I think people who say this forget about the “war on terror” and all the innocent civilians killed in drone stikes.

That is an entirely different thing. You're talking foreign policy, I'm talking domestic policy.
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