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Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

economist.com

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Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#231

Post by NeedMoreTea »

wtdata wrote: post #203
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure Europe took more action than most, but those actions are clearly now seen to be a) insufficient, and b) limited to a small proportion of the world's emissions. China and the US more than cancel out any improvements the EU made. They might have been sufficient if everyone had played, though I doubt it. They didn't, so the goal posts have moved significantly. There's still only one planet. Apologies for my shortha…

Sorry but those actions where clearly sufficient. If all countries had reduced their CO2 emissions like the EU block did, we would be in an excellent state. The reduction needs to keep happening in a steady pace, not have a sudden shift like these extremist environmentalist are calling for. My issue with those analysis is that they are political, not environmentalist. For instance, if you look at India in those same…

No, they weren't. They were meant to be a first step of many as part of a sustained programme of international action. We mostly didn't bother, so it's rather academic anyway. We lost the luxury of 30 years of steady incremental managed and subsidised change and now need to apply the emergency brake.

I'm not sure which environmental extremists you are thinking of. Environmental extremists like the UN IPCC - the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, whose current chair is an economist - are contesting Western society by disrupting all economic output? There was me thinking they are working to try and keep the possibility of some economic output by avoiding civilisation crash.

This is not some cliche hair-shirt 70s environmental hippies going overboard on the ganja at peace camp. This is chemists, meteorologists, climatologists and economists, etc appointed by the world's governments. Governments that are, I assume, mostly not seeking a rerun of 1917.

XR want to achieve the IPCC's aims. Nothing more. I see regular people from a diverse mix of very normal backgrounds with regular jobs. I see no reds under the bed.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#232

Post by harshreality »

zaroth wrote: post #181
adrianN wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered passenger airlines? Pay about $200 for each ton of carbon dioxide equivalent their flights blow into the air instead of benefiting from tax free kerosene.

No need to be punitive. Recognize that there are legitimate and important needs for travel. The generally accepted social cost for a ton of CO2 is about $40. The per passenger emissions are about 3,500 miles per ton.

Generally accepted by whom?

We can't currently efficiently and scalably remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Charging based on marginal climate change or marginal removal cost is dumb. It's like MegaCorp charging marginal cost for a widget. Sure, it covers operational costs, but the company has no way to pay back debts for capex and other sunk costs so they go bankrupt.

Unless you consider whole-system costs for complete carbon neutrality, including at a minimum all hydrocarbon-utilizing modern industries (energy, transport, manufacturing), you're mispricing CO2 emissions.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#233

Post by JBReefer »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #208
alpaca128 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? The airport is forced to block all flights, which in turn prevents danger to passengers. That's the whole purpose behind the drones.

This causes disruption to not just one airport but many. Diverting planes and generally making a mess of flight plans is most definitely putting lives in danger.

It also causes more people to drive, which will cause more people to die. When’s the last time a person was killed on an airplane in the UK - Lockerbie?

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#234

Post by NeedMoreTea »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #212
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing to me is since the long Easter weekend of XR protests in the UK, opinion polls have shown them rising in popularity and environment polling higher too. XR are not interested in making friends, but causing enough disruption to get government to treat the issue seriously, in the manner of civil rights and universal suffrage actions. They've certainly increased awareness and discussion. That they a…

It doesn't matter which party is in control, no action will be taken. Any action that takes a significant bite out of CO2 emissions will either cause a major decline in standard of living, or have an enormous financial cost. The people who answer that poll don't understand that. When they find out it will not be pleasant for whatever party is in power. The politicians from all parties know this. That's why they make…

Not convinced polls only catch the ignorant. :)

Cost is trivial compared to the cost of inaction. The consequences of no action on climate change will have enormous financial cost times ten, times twenty. Do we really want to find out?

You might want to look at Labour, SNP and Lib Dem climate policy. Whether they get to form a government or informal coalition is, of course, another matter as environment is not - yet - the sole issue that wins elections. Even the Conservative party is moving in the right direction, albeit glacially slowly with some creative accounting.

The only choice left is matter of degree.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#235

Post by NeedMoreTea »

notahacker wrote: post #229
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing to me is since the long Easter weekend of XR protests in the UK, opinion polls have shown them rising in popularity and environment polling higher too. XR are not interested in making friends, but causing enough disruption to get government to treat the issue seriously, in the manner of civil rights and universal suffrage actions. They've certainly increased awareness and discussion. That they a…

The polls I've seen put the public at 52% broadly opposed to their actions (36% broadly supportive) back in May, and I have trouble believing droning Heathrow will improve that. Sure, they have succeeded in pushing climate change higher in the news cycle, but the secular trend was in that direction anyway, "awareness" of anthropogenic climate change was at ~95% and the government already had a Net Zero strategy that…

I'm inclined to agree that drones at Heathrow will be a misstep that could backfire for XR. It's an outsize disruption with possibility of outsize jail sentences when they always claimed they were focusing on the capital where the government and decision makers are. Heathrow seems a bit of a stretch. City airport perhaps. To me it's a confusing choice.

The government's net zero strategy is little more than not disputing the Select Committee on Climate Change's report. As the committee themselves note there now needs to be actual policy. From an administration that has been hugely counterproductive to adoption of greener energy.

Edit: I suspect Boris forgot about his pledge the morning after he uttered it. :)

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#236

Post by wtdata »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #231
wtdata wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but those actions where clearly sufficient. If all countries had reduced their CO2 emissions like the EU block did, we would be in an excellent state. The reduction needs to keep happening in a steady pace, not have a sudden shift like these extremist environmentalist are calling for. My issue with those analysis is that they are political, not environmentalist. For instance, if you look at India in those same…

No, they weren't. They were meant to be a first step of many as part of a sustained programme of international action. We mostly didn't bother, so it's rather academic anyway. We lost the luxury of 30 years of steady incremental managed and subsidised change and now need to apply the emergency brake. I'm not sure which environmental extremists you are thinking of. Environmental extremists like the UN IPCC - the Inter…

The EU reduced their emissions by close to 30% in 30 years. These actions were obviously sufficient. Problem is that only the EU (what what are now the EU members) took the effort. The EU should be praised as an example and instead we have a bunch of environmentalist extremists shutting down airports here with drones.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#238

Post by IshKebab »

tomohawk wrote: post #225
samcday wrote: post #109

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…

Whenever a group seeks to get their way by interfering with the rights of others, because what they are trying to achieve is "too important" to worry about such "petty" concerns as people's right to freely travel, engage in commerce, and generally pursue happiness - it's time to watch out. Recent (past 200 years) history is filled with example after example of how tragically this ends. This is not civil disobedience.…

Do we not have a right to clean air? One could easily argue the most of the population is interfering with my right to breathe clean air and enjoy normal weather.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#239

Post by CrazyStat »

alpaca128 wrote: post #204
brokenkebab wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying drones close to busy airport is endangering the safety of passengers.

Is it? The airport is forced to block all flights, which in turn prevents danger to passengers. That's the whole purpose behind the drones.

Is planning a bomb ok if you phone in a warning before hand so that the building gets evacuated?

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#240

Post by alan-crowe »

Lendal wrote: post #77
inflatableDodo wrote: post #12

>"Protesters plan a return to the airport—and there is very little the authorities can do" This line is curious. When was the first one? I mean there was the shenanigans where nobody was sure if there was even a drone, but there was in that case, as far as I am aware, no evidence for any activism beyond people saying that it might be activists. I am dubious about this reporting. If someone can show me something from…

I tend to agree. It makes no sense. If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) and that will only serve to politically damage the cause you purport to care about? What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered pas…

> If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in?

Back in 2016 you could have pointed to the Brexit referendum as an example of meaningful participation. You could say to the environmental campaigners: copy UKIP, get the government to concede a referendum on shutting down Heathrow. Campaign in the the referendum. There are big problems with persuading enough people to win, but democracy works; if you persuade and win, Heathrow actually gets shut down.

Now they laugh at you. Even if you win the referendum, nothing happens. Then nothing else happens. Then the BBC uses a combat comedian to signal that you are fair game for acid attacks if you refuse to shut up about nothing happening.

The question of whether democracy in the UK is a sham splits into two questions. The split is analogous to the split implicit in the slogan. "Justice must be seen to be done." It is not really enough that Justice is done. Justice must be done in public, so that people can see that it is done. Similarly Brexit is complicated. Many people accept the politicians assurances that they are having difficulty doing something difficult. But that isn't really enough. We want to keep hot-heads on board with democratic politics. That required leaving on 29th March. We missed that deadline, and there will be adverse consequences throughout public life for many years to come.

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