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WeChat and the Surveillance State

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Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#231

Post by Swinx43 »

Aelius wrote: post #52
Swinx43 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly see it going the other way. Deepfakes being used to create fake material that falsely incriminates someone. So if they have the biometrics of an account on file already, they would match a fake video circulating the service to that account and presto you are on a watch list.

I could imagine a "resistance" bombarding wechat with so much garbage that the PRC wouldn't be able to trust intel gathered from it.

Now that is an interesting thought. They could incriminate party members and government officials to sow distrust in the ranks.

Having seen though how certain groups of the population have been dealt with in China does make me wonder if they would not just round everyone up and send them for “re-education”.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#232

Post by tempguy9999 »

repolfx wrote: post #228
tempguy9999 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy i…

taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results I wonder what sort of education you've had? I can easily and quickly think of dictatorships that killed or enslaved millions of their own citizens - it's practically a requirement to be a really good dictatorship, it seems. It's a struggle to think of any democracies which do that. Perhap…

:)

Please note the bit about my father.

But yours a very good point! So what do I mean? It depends on the word 'better' and 'stable'.

'stable' is easily covered - chinese society has existed in a stable form for thousands of years. There's no evidence that any democracy has, because democracy as I know it is a relatively recent thing. Yeah, greeks and democracy, but they also kept slaves so no.

'better'? Well, what do you mean by that. I suppose on reflection I was equating that with stable, so if you accept that then I've already covered it, and feudalism/totalitarianism/authoritarianism is perhaps 'better'. A stable society at the cost of individual happiness.

You define 'better' as equivalent to human rights, which I agree with, however my point is, be clear with your definitions of pivotal words! That's all. And I should have been so as well.

To be clear I'm not advocating nor would wish to live under, such regimes.

(and the brexit shite is a train wreck, and I am losing some faith in people who voted for brexit based on xenophobia and ignorance. I've met both sorts so I know they exist).

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#233

Post by tempguy9999 »

tombh wrote: post #221
sho wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all I know either drink bottled water or only hot, boiled tap water 100% of them drink boiled tap water. But isn't this proving my point? Not like it's poisoned with heavy metals? As for pollution, of course they have a long way to go, but the dystopian picture you paint is hardly fair. It's not perfect but you make it sound like Blade Runner 2049. It's not. I live in Bangkok right now and it is WAY worse th…

Well put. It's true a lot of the negative stuff here isn't technically incorrect, but the hyperbole certainly has a distorting effect on the conversation. Clearly, discovering negative aspects about China serves some kind of convenient narrative. I suspect it's something to do with China's growing power, which is threatening to the hegemony the so-called West has exploited for the last few centuries. Reading between…

> It's true a lot of the negative stuff here isn't technically incorrect

Then it's correct, yes?

> China serves some kind of convenient narrative

I have to agree. If china were an economically unimportant tiddler or have lotsa oil, the west wouldn't care nearly as much.

> the so-called West has exploited for the last few centuries

And china had a pretty repressive feudal government for a very long time. That is, the pyramid's peak freely and often brutally exploited the pyramid's broad base. For a very long time. And Uighurs - like to comment on them? Perhaps you'd like to list some chinese atrocities here?

Seriously, list some.

I'm aware and not proud of the opium wars. That shit should be taught in school, as well as the way brits treated the irish, the welsh, the scottish... Not as a guilt thing but as a way of saying, let this not happen again.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#234

Post by lotsofpulp »

whatshisface wrote: post #198
baby wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be fine with this as long as you don't have to pay a fee if you're not paying cash (which is often a thing for small shops). Unfortunately this is not the world we're living in :) it's often both cash and cards OR just cash. Berlin is a really good example of that, you always need cash on you which tricks the many tourists who come from countries were cash is not really a thing anymore.

The credit card companies make the merchant pay a fee for using credit cards - so it's not the shop's fault. That's another reason why cash is alive in America.

The bigger reason is to avoid taxes. If it’s paid with card, taxes have to be paid, and with cash, the merchant can make an extra 30%+ by not declaring it.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#235

Post by the_resistence »

dheera wrote: post #77
pishpash wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use it for what it's intended for, chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence. If you have genuine thoughts, use something else.

Easy to say, but hard to do when the people who you genuinely value your relationship with don't use anything else. It's also not intended for "chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence". It's specifically intended to basically be your entire life. In China you can pay all your bills, manage your bank account, buy plane, train tickets, hotel reservations, donate to charities, rent bikes, shop online, order fo…

I also hate using it but it is a requirement to live here. Once I had a one hour software update problem and the feeling of dread was overwhelming.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#236

Post by tempguy9999 »

adventured wrote: post #107
tempguy9999 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be fine as long as people in bulk are reasonably happy, which equates to the economy doing well which allows china's economy to look and feel good. " look and feel " because there seem to be many proper economists (I'm not) that see china's economy as a facade hiding junk. When we get the big bubble pop which seems to be hastening in, their people may start to feel a lot less comfortable. We'll see then what ha…

Reuters has been running an interesting series of stories on the topsy turvy economy inside of China, focused on Henan: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-prope... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-consu... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-socia...

Oh look, a post with details of china's dodgy economic situation and how it treats its people is downvoted.

But who would do that? And why??????? So confusing....

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#237

Post by anonu »

In NYC there's been a growing trend towards merchants going cashless. There are bills to prevent this. Losing ability to pay with cash means a loss of privacy and anonymity.

The WeChat dominance in payments reminds me a bit of this trend. Luckily some US local governments care about maintaining some level of privacy.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#238

Post by repolfx »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #232
repolfx wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results I wonder what sort of education you've had? I can easily and quickly think of dictatorships that killed or enslaved millions of their own citizens - it's practically a requirement to be a really good dictatorship, it seems. It's a struggle to think of any democracies which do that. Perhap…

:) Please note the bit about my father. But yours a very good point! So what do I mean? It depends on the word 'better' and 'stable'. 'stable' is easily covered - chinese society has existed in a stable form for thousands of years. There's no evidence that any democracy has, because democracy as I know it is a relatively recent thing. Yeah, greeks and democracy, but they also kept slaves so no. 'better'? Well, what d…

Well, how do you see that China has been stable? In the 20th century it's been conquered in an invasion, then went through a communist revolution and fought a civil war that split itself in two. The governments have been replaced repeatedly. It has such severe racial and civil unrest in its western regions the PRC built huge concentration camps and 'disappeared' millions of people into them as the only way to keep the peace. That doesn't sound very stable to me!

Compare that to Britain which has had continuous revolution-free government for hundreds of years, has not split, has had no civil wars for centuries and doesn't disappear its own citizens. It looks pretty stable in comparison.

I think maybe your view of China is coloured by PRC propaganda. They love to claim thousands of years of history, that the PRC is the source of all stability and harmony in China, etc. But a cold reading of history makes it look a bit different.

I voted for Brexit, because the best countries are universally the most democratic countries. That's how I guessed your poor view of democracy might be related to it. We can say these views are stereotypes, but I met a lot of Brexit voters who just didn't like the EU institutions or the way they treat the country, and none (so far) that didn't like immigrants. I'm sure such people do exist, they just don't seem to be prevalent in the circles I move in. Unfortunately I have met a lot of Remain voters who seem unfortunately keen on dictatorship - I guess that's why Leave arguments about democracy are only ever met with irrelevant counterarguments like "racism! xenophobia!". The lack of democracy in the EU is one of the things that appeals to them about it!

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#239

Post by ConfusedDog »

rsync wrote: post #130
ConfusedDog wrote: post #18

This is indeed very scary especially now it requires facial recognition part... to sign up for WeChat, you need to have a valid phone number; to use WeChat pay, you got to provide real-name and official ID, bank account, etc. From the WeChat social network, relationships are easily identified. The mere existence of such tool is destine to be misused, regardless who made it. This is what real power looks like.

"The mere existence of such tool is destine to be misused, regardless who made it. This is what real power looks like." I encourage you to read the novel _A Deepness in the Sky_ which introduces the concept of "localizers" which are the technological end-state of "smart speakers" and social networks like wechat. Very well fleshed out and very thought provoking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky#Loca…

Thanks for the book recommendation. I just bought it on Audible.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#240

Post by tempguy9999 »

repolfx wrote: post #238
tempguy9999 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:) Please note the bit about my father. But yours a very good point! So what do I mean? It depends on the word 'better' and 'stable'. 'stable' is easily covered - chinese society has existed in a stable form for thousands of years. There's no evidence that any democracy has, because democracy as I know it is a relatively recent thing. Yeah, greeks and democracy, but they also kept slaves so no. 'better'? Well, what d…

Well, how do you see that China has been stable? In the 20th century it's been conquered in an invasion, then went through a communist revolution and fought a civil war that split itself in two. The governments have been replaced repeatedly. It has such severe racial and civil unrest in its western regions the PRC built huge concentration camps and 'disappeared' millions of people into them as the only way to keep th…

> Well, how do you see that China has been stable?

Hard to say. China's society has been around since after the unification, 221BC (post-waring-states, the qin dynasty). It may have gone back further, to the shang dynasty (~1500 BC) but that was probably a period of conflict throughout. But does conflict in itself negate continuity of society?

But a) my knowledge of chinese history is minimal, and b) most important, how do you measure a society. The UK of now is different from the UK of 1980, how does one measure the continuation of a society? By culture? The Shang dynasty oracle bones have script that may be the precursor of chinese writing. Han period statuary is very reminiscent of modern chinese stuff.

Britain was likely pre-literate before the romans arrived (50BC IIRC) and the art was very different then, such as it was.

I don't know, how should we measure this? I mention art and writing as a proxy for culture as a proxy for society, but what should it be? We can't debate without agreeing basic terms.

> In the 20th century it's been conquered in an invasion

I think you mean the opium wars. I mention this in another post here. But they survived as a culture (arguably). "went through a communist revolution" - ditto survived (I might argue).

> PRC built huge concentration camps and 'disappeared' millions of people into them as

Yesss, I mention this in another post here. That is one way to have stability albeit an horrific one.

Compared to this, the UK was invaded repeatedly within the last 1000 years, the language was changed, the genetics were changed, the art changed... but what is a culture/society? These things? Other? Tell me.

> I think maybe your view of China is coloured by PRC propaganda

No. Please my other posts here. And stability and harmony are a matter of definition. I am sure my and your vision of it is something far nicer than china's crushing 'pacification' but unless we define things, we're spinning our wheels.

Also this thread is not about brexit and in this context I'm not willing to discuss it. I don't know why you're bringing it up.

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