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ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

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Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#231
post #76

What is the recommended course of action? Stop buying Intel products, and devices which contain them? What about devices with older processors? I'm still running a Sandy Bridge rig and it works fine, except for the side channel vulnerablities. It's probably not going to be patched. I also have a cheaper computer with a Skylake processor, which is newer yet still vulnerable! It's only a matter of time until something…

Yes. Stop supporting this company and their duplicitous practices. After bulldozer flopped they stopped competing and just made 8 years of sandy bridge die shrinks with extra speculative sauce to speed things up.

Their former CEO also committed insider trading by selling off most of his stock before they revealed the vulnerabilities.

I think they are just squeezing people while they can before ARM takes over. AMD is equipped to adapt with their chiplet design. Intel just has an 8 year old ISA that's rooted in the Pentium M from the early 00s. They couldn't even hit 10nm after pushing the launch back for years.

I'm hoping they have to face the music and ARM or RISC V takes over the market with tons of healthy competition from more than just 2 companies.

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#233
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they’d eventually have to disclose when the vulnerability was discovered and that’d be extremely obvious what they’re doing?

Is it obvious if they have an existing plan to sell shares and are simply waiting for it to trigger? They can reasonably claim they took this action to protect consumers until they had a better fix

I don’t think he did. He got out and had a prior years notice. Then he made a comment about not losing over 20 percent datacenter to amd. Dude definitely seen what was coming

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#234

Apparently Intel attempted to play down the issue by trying to award the researchers with the 40,000 dollar tier reward and a separate 80,000 dollar reward as a "gift" (which the researchers kindly denied) instead of the maximum 100,000 reward for finding a critical vulnerability. Intel was also planning to wait for at least another 6 months before bringing this to light if it wasn't for the researchers threatening t…

> Intel was also planning to wait for at least another 6 months before bringing this to light Of course, until the legally agreed date when they can dump shares so there’s no obvious proof that it’s insider trading. Isn’t that what (then) Intel CEO Brian Krzanich did after Meltdown/Spectre?

No. CPU vulns don’t affect Intel’s stock price.

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#235
post #76

What is the recommended course of action? Stop buying Intel products, and devices which contain them? What about devices with older processors? I'm still running a Sandy Bridge rig and it works fine, except for the side channel vulnerablities. It's probably not going to be patched. I also have a cheaper computer with a Skylake processor, which is newer yet still vulnerable! It's only a matter of time until something…

The easiest prevention is to stop running untrusted code, or don't start doing so if you're not already.

The "elephant in the room" with all these attacks starting from Spectre/Meltdown is that an attacker has to run code on your machine to be able to exploit them at all.

To the average user, the biggest risk of all these side-channels is JS running in the browser, and that is quite effectively prevented by careful whitelisting.

As you can probably tell, I'm really not all that concerned about these sidechannels on my own machines, because I already don't download and run random executables (the consequences of doing that are already worse than this sidechannel would allow...), nor let every site I visit run JS (not even HN, in case you're wondering --- it doesn't need JS to be usable.)

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#236

It takes one rouge/unpatched VM to run and scan threads randomly, undetected over a longer period of time, if not patched. With HT disabled potential hits become less likely, but still possible given time. Is virtualization on Intel dead now? Perhaps not. But, it's increasingly dangerous to use Intel for cloud services.

Interestingly AWS released a bulletin about MDS vulnerability but nothing about ZombieLoad yet. https://aws.amazon.com/security/security-bulletins/AWS-2019-...

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#237
post #88
post #76

What is the recommended course of action? Stop buying Intel products, and devices which contain them? What about devices with older processors? I'm still running a Sandy Bridge rig and it works fine, except for the side channel vulnerablities. It's probably not going to be patched. I also have a cheaper computer with a Skylake processor, which is newer yet still vulnerable! It's only a matter of time until something…

The stream of critical CPU vulnerabilities starting with Spectre/Meltdown last year are related to speculative execution , not just Intel. (AMD and ARM CPUs are also vulnerable to Spectre, for example.) Intel CPUs are sometimes vulnerable to additional attacks because they speculate in more scenarios than other designs. But fundamentally, as long as multiple different trust domains are sharing one CPU that speculates…

Can we say that, without speculation and caching, and just throwing more and more cpu to work, we would have slower single app performance but better parallel execution ?

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#238
An unprivileged attacker with the ability to execute code

That sounds like a contradiction --- if you can already execute code, I'd say you're quite privileged. It's unfortunate that their demo doesn't itself run in the browser using JS (I don't know if it's possible), because that's closer to what people might think of as "unprivileged".

The attacker has no control over the address from which data is leaked, therefore it is necessary to know when the victim application handles the interesting data.

This is a very important point that all the Spectre/Meltdown-originated side-channels have in common, so I think it deserves more attention: there's a huge difference between being able to read some random data (theoretically, a leak) and it being actionable (practically, to exploit it); of course as mentioned in the article there are certain data which has patterns, but things like encryption keys tend to be pretty much random --- and then there's the question of what exactly that key is protecting. Let's say you did manage to correctly read a whole TLS session key --- what are you going to do with it? How are you going to get access to the network traffic it's protecting? You have just as much chance that this same exploit will leak the bytes of that before it's encrypted, so the ability to do something "attackful" is still rather limited.

Even the data which has patterns, like the mentioned credit card numbers, still needs some other associated data (cardholder name, PIN, etc.) in order to actually be usable.

The unpredictability of what you get, and the speed at which you can read (the demo shows 31 seconds to read 12 bytes), IMHO leads to a situation where getting all the pieces to line up just right for one specific victim is a huge effort, and because it's timing-based, any small change in the environment could easily "shift the sand" and result in reading something entirely different from what you had planned with all the careful setup you did.

Using ZombieLoad as a covert channel, two VMs could communicate with each other even in scenarios where they are configured in a way that forbids direct interaction between them.

IMHO that example is stretching things a bit, because it's already possible to "signal" between VMs by using indicators as crude as CPU or disk usage --- all one VM has to do to "write" is "pulse" the CPU or disk usage in whatever pattern it wants, modulating it with the data it wants to send, and the other one can "read" just by timing how long operations take. Anyone who has ever experienced things like "this machine is more responsive now, I guess the build I was doing in the background is finished" has seen this simple side-channel in action.

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#239
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but I don't see Intel mentioning this 40% anywhere... by Intel words, the worst degradation is 9%, and it creates an impression that it's with HT off. If you choose not to disable HT, you stay vulnerable even with updated microcode, right? In any case, Apple's stats are much more gruesome...

It really is going to depend on what test you are running. HT has the greatest effect when the running process has a lot of "downtime" for things like memory retrieval or any I/O as it allows for other processes to make use of this downtime. So if your tests are just doing calculations with very little file/network I/O it could very well be in the 9% range.

The best of the worst case. Gotta love that Intel spin machine working in overdrive

Re: ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs

#240
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stream of critical CPU vulnerabilities starting with Spectre/Meltdown last year are related to speculative execution , not just Intel. (AMD and ARM CPUs are also vulnerable to Spectre, for example.) Intel CPUs are sometimes vulnerable to additional attacks because they speculate in more scenarios than other designs. But fundamentally, as long as multiple different trust domains are sharing one CPU that speculates…

Can we say that, without speculation and caching, and just throwing more and more cpu to work, we would have slower single app performance but better parallel execution ?

Sure -- for a good example, GPUs go partway there by not speculating (they still have cache hierarchies though). It works because GPU workloads have massive data parallelism, so while one group of threads (a "warp") is stalled waiting for data, the cores can just execute other threads. Sun/Oracle had built a number of Sparc chips along this line too, e.g. the Niagara (Sun UltraSPARC T1) tolerates memory latency by having a bunch of SMT threads (8 per core, IIRC?) rather than OoO scheduling.

The problem is that single-thread performance is really important for a lot of workloads, because (i) parallelization is hard, (ii) even for parallelized workloads, serial bottlenecks (critical sections, etc.) still exist, and (iii) latency is often important too (one web request on one core of a server, or compiling one straggler extra-large file in a parallel build, for example).

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