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Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

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Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#231

Post by rdl »

evgen wrote: post #181
rdl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes for caves. Caves are easy and safe compared to deep open ocean wrecks. Caves may actually be within the "reasonable to do recreationally" level, and WKPP is or was actually doing worthwhile environmental science too. Outside of the US, helium is seriously expensive. I was figuring dual rebreathers, or rebreather + OC bailout. $800 in gas alone for a 100m training dive for TDI Adv Nitrox, open circuit. WKPP and GU…

Outside of the US, helium is seriously expensive. I was figuring dual rebreathers, or rebreather + OC bailout. $800 in gas alone for a 100m training dive for TDI Adv Nitrox, open circuit. It has been almost a decade since my Adv Nitrox course, but I am trying to figure this one out. You are not doing trimix and from what I remember of the the course spec you are mostly working around bottom mixes that are hypoxic at…

Yes, I meant tdi advanced trimix, not adv nitrox.

Nitrox, even 100% o2, is cheap. A lot of places do free nitrox now, it is just a little more hassle to analyze your tanks. Especially on boats with membrane systems.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#232

Post by rdtsc »

Mz wrote: post #205
jhchen wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is risking life is bad in all cases. It depends on the possible gain. A simple example is a lot of people consider freedom something worth dying for. But what is the gain here of climbing Everest after it has been climbed hundreds of times? Astronauts clearly benefit humanity with more than just great stories. I can't see much marginal benefit for society for each additional Everest climber. I…

But I just can't see much benefit for anyone else. I and my oldest son both have a form of cystic fibrosis. I have figured out how to get us well (we actually work together on it but I do most of the research). Reading up on altitude sickness was an Aha! moment for me. In some ways, medical science doesn't have much of value to offer me in terms of thinking through the problem and coming up with new solutions. Medica…

> Also, living at 3000 feet above sea level for about 2.5 years, thereby forcibly expanding my lung capacity.

Fascinating. It is certainly no regular doctor would prescribe to anyone. But it makes sense.

My grandfather was wounded during the war and as a result was left with a severely reduced lung capacity. When he came back, everyone was surprised when he started singing in a local church choir. Here is a man that can barely breathe and now he wants to sing. Everyone in the village thought he was crazy. But I think the singing was helping him breathe a great deal. He lived 50 more years.

So sometimes the counter-intuitive thing makes sense.

I am often frustrated when I talk to doctors because I want to know in more details what is going on, I want the results of tests explained and so on, Then I am not sure if they are just busy and think I am an asshole for asking annoying questions, or what I am more scared of, they don't actually know or care to know these things and just prescribe pills according to a textbook checklist of symptoms.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#233

Post by rdtsc »

Dove wrote: post #223
jhchen wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is risking life is bad in all cases. It depends on the possible gain. A simple example is a lot of people consider freedom something worth dying for. But what is the gain here of climbing Everest after it has been climbed hundreds of times? Astronauts clearly benefit humanity with more than just great stories. I can't see much marginal benefit for society for each additional Everest climber. I…

But I just can't see much benefit for anyone else. If the mountain climber's goal is to be a stronger person, both he and the people around him benefit from his achieving it. If he comes out of the experience a strong, unintimidatable leader who inspires others and fights hard to make the world a better place, it's even arguable that the people around him benefit from his experience more than he does.

There is a balance to everything. I am not sure if 10% chance of dying is worth the gamble to emerge as a better leader on the other side, especially, as it was pointed out, if it leaves behind a grieving widow, son, mother, or friend.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#234

Post by dennisgorelik »

RickHull wrote: post #117
brazzy wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climbing Mt. Everest has nothing to do with exploration, and hasn't had for a long time. It's an industry catering to reckless thrill-seekers.

> Climbing Mt. Everest has nothing to do with exploration At an organizational level, you are correct. There are very few places left unexplored by the human race on this planet. However, on an individual level, if you have never been to the summit of Everest, then it is very much a personal exploration. Maps and guides reduce the required effort from superhuman to formidable, but I see a clear exploratory factor. At…

On personal level I can explore Mt. Everest over Internet and get better understanding of what it is than someone who climbs it. Assuming that we both spend equal amount of time (me researching, and the climber -- in preparations and climbing).

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#235

Post by gsivil »

http://outsideonline.com/outside/destinations/199609/travel-...

True Everest Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer

Everest deals with trespassers harshly: the dead vanish beneath the snows. While the living struggle to explain what happened. And why. A survivor of the mountain's worst disaster examines the business of Mount Everest and the steep price of ambition.

By Jon Krakauer

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#236

Post by aaronblohowiak »

kyleslattery wrote: post #178
webwright wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I said that like there's a recklessly selfish spectrum and this is pegged near one end with driving while extremely intoxicated, habitually using heroin, etc. At the other end are mildly selfish acts. Playing an X-box is a mildly selfish act. It's fun, but probably isn't a real big win for family, friends, society, etc. Not too damaging to them, though, unless done in excess. Getting massively drunk and then driv…

Your analogy doesn't quite hold: a sherpa is not an innocent bystander--they know exactly what they're getting themselves into, and they've decided they're willing to accept the same risks that the hikers take on.

They probably know more about what they are getting into than their employer.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#237

Post by jacquesm »

Mz wrote: post #205
jhchen wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is risking life is bad in all cases. It depends on the possible gain. A simple example is a lot of people consider freedom something worth dying for. But what is the gain here of climbing Everest after it has been climbed hundreds of times? Astronauts clearly benefit humanity with more than just great stories. I can't see much marginal benefit for society for each additional Everest climber. I…

But I just can't see much benefit for anyone else. I and my oldest son both have a form of cystic fibrosis. I have figured out how to get us well (we actually work together on it but I do most of the research). Reading up on altitude sickness was an Aha! moment for me. In some ways, medical science doesn't have much of value to offer me in terms of thinking through the problem and coming up with new solutions. Medica…

Have you considered taking up playing a wind instrument ?

This might help you to maintain that extra lung capacity or even to build it out further.

I've had a collapsed lung about two years ago and it was my years and years of sax playing that probably saved the day (that and a helpful neighbor that figured out that something serious over and beyond serious chest pain when inhaling was amiss, I'm off the 'if it came by itself it will go by itself' persuasion, which is ok most of the times but not always).

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#238

Post by nostromo »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #227
nostromo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This page ( http://www.8000ers.com/cms/everest-general-info-185.html ) shows 4102 attempts to reach the top with 216 deaths last year. That puts it at about 5% of climbs end in death. However, only about 2700 individuals climbed -- which puts the deaths / "uniques" back up to 8%. And if you assume that the sherpas die less frequently than do the tourists, 10% doesn't seem too far off. Interestingly, K2 seems to be mu…

That death total is not last year, that's all time. 216 dead people in a year would be the end of mountaineering. The attempt numbers you quote, 4102 attempts by 2700 individuals, was for 2008. A year with one fatality. Those odds are quite different.

Sorry, yes, both of those numbers are for all time.

However, the rate stands. It's not correct, according to the source on 8000ers, that 4000 people climb it in a year. Indeed, the list shows that number is for all time as well.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#239

Post by weaksauce »

jasonkester wrote: post #36

My relatives sometimes ask whether I'm 'still doing that mountain climbing thing?'. I'm pretty sure they think that this is what I'm up to. I'm sure I'd fall in love with high altitude mountaineering (all other aspects of climbing are so addictive that it follows) but I've always made a point of staying away. The statistics are all there to see. I'll stick with the rocks, thank you. My personal rule is that if it's c…

I am with you on that accord. Being cold sucks and climbing is really addicting. Alpinism is too dangerous and cold for my tastes but to each their own. Life is risk management. Not everyone rides motorcycles even though they are really enjoyable in fair weather.

Re: Everest is littered with dead, exposed bodies

#240

Post by waterlesscloud »

nostromo wrote: post #238
waterlesscloud wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That death total is not last year, that's all time. 216 dead people in a year would be the end of mountaineering. The attempt numbers you quote, 4102 attempts by 2700 individuals, was for 2008. A year with one fatality. Those odds are quite different.

Sorry, yes, both of those numbers are for all time. However, the rate stands. It's not correct, according to the source on 8000ers, that 4000 people climb it in a year. Indeed, the list shows that number is for all time as well.

We're both wrong. It's 4000 people all time who have reached the summit. There is no number on the site indicating the number of attempts.
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