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Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

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Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#231

Post by bigred100 »

mac01021 wrote: post #221
bigred100 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lately I have the vague opinion that half-baked scientific reasoning and the tendency to come up with evolutionary just so stories is a horrible detriment to modern society. Humanity has come up with a reasonable way to interpret human behavior by human standards through the humanities. I feel content to evaluate other humans by human standards rather than speculating on how he’s actually highly adapted for the Afric…

What is the nature of that horrible detriment to society? There are myriad ways that humans tend to make bad decisions in the course of modern life. Psychology and evolutionary biology currently provide the best answer to "why". If you want to understand yourself well enough to be able to avoid having marketers and advertisers make your most important life choices for you, or want to raise your children to think crit…

Well, my personal opinion is that a better understanding of human nature will come from the traditional means (interacting with people, study of literature and history and human institutions, and, even more controversially, maybe even religion) than trying to analyze human behavior from the point of view of apes dominating each other. I don’t think anyone with any reasonably sound theory of human nature would hold the assumption of “people [behaving] rationally in pursuit of well defined goals”.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#232

Post by bigred100 »

hitekker wrote: post #227
bigred100 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lately I have the vague opinion that half-baked scientific reasoning and the tendency to come up with evolutionary just so stories is a horrible detriment to modern society. Humanity has come up with a reasonable way to interpret human behavior by human standards through the humanities. I feel content to evaluate other humans by human standards rather than speculating on how he’s actually highly adapted for the Afric…

Ironically, this comment comes across a denial of human nature. I think it’s wrong to assume that evolutionary psychology and sociology are mutually exclusive.

To force an analogy that I think is frankly stupid but may sort of work here, I believe that almost everyone who is an engineer or programmer or something is going to be much better served by thinking of intuitive notions of continuity, linear approximations, etc. when trying to do or apply calculus than by imagining infinite seas of power sets of the empty set and building up from ZFC axioms to dedekind cuts

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#233

Post by stuffedBelly »

lazyjones wrote: post #223
stuffedBelly wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can prove me wrong by actually arguing/answering the questions I had but instead you fell into Tu quoque...don't think this is how a healthy argument should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque > someone who develops software and pretends to be some sort of financial expert Your assumption is baseless and does not help your argument. Commenting on HN does not mean someone develops software for a living. HN…

> Commenting on HN does not mean someone develops software for a living. HN is open for everyone. You don't even understand that I can read all your comments on HN, as well as your profile, where you claim to be doing exactly that. You're just wasting time and space with your insults and rhetoric.

> You're just wasting time and space with your insults and rhetoric

I engage in arguments but where do you see insults?

I know very well you can read comments and profiles. I've had an HN account since 2011 and it gave me enough time to become well versed in finance. Plus I call myself software engineer because I work in quantitative finance and software engineering is big part of it. I'm also a CFA charterholder and not putting it on my HN profile doesn't make me less versed in finance.

It's ok if you don't want to engage in arguments, but don't assume you know someone by simply skimming through their HN profiles.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#234

Post by thaumasiotes »

rayiner wrote: post #222
salawat wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely not seeking to troll or start a flame war here, so I apologize profusely if I speak out of line, I'm just looking to understand the current Chinese mindset. All that working hard is to catch up to a country that pushed the envelope on a 40 hour work week, and at least made an effort to respect the right of the worker to have a life outside the office? I find the argunent/cultural value unconvincing when…

I’m not Chinese, but the sentiment is pan-Asian. You can’t build an industrial superpower from a country of rice farmers by working 40 hours a week. (Nor did the rice farmers work 40 days a week before industrialization!) Certainly, the US didn’t do it. (See: “Protestant work ethic.”) The 40-hour work week is something we adopted after our ascendency. It’s a luxury for the already rich. It’s possibly a luxury for tho…

>> Do you think never having to work 996 in your life is an honour to boast about?

> It’s a luxury for the already rich.

This sounds like you think it is an honor to boast about.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#235

Post by HansLandaa »

koonsolo wrote: post #101

Can someone explain to me how you can be productive for 12 hours on a single day? When I do concentrated programming work, I can maybe do 4 hours, at best 6 hours. It seems I can stretch it when doing more mundane work when I know what needs to be done. But this time is seriously reduced when I have to think about architecture or more complex stuff. The literature also point into this direction, where writers and ser…

I was able to go through a short period when I did 7-8 hours of productive work, but I also lost 15 pounds. I would just work until I was too hungry to think and only eat then. It definitely wasn't sustainable long term.

I think it's a mistake to force people to stay in the office and work for this long. Even if it isn't 100% productive work hours, it still deprives them of opportunities to do other things with their lives such as family, hobbies and fitness activities.

It's as if he doesn't realize he's doing tangible harm to thousands of lives.

I also find it strange that someone that is currently retired at the early age of 54 can demand that other people (earning salaries) work 996. If working is so great and virtuous then why did Jack Ma retire early?

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#236

Post by celticninja »

brazzy wrote: post #105
celticninja wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because it is your choice to undertake the extra working time, not because it is expected.

That doesn't change how much it messes up your performance and judgement.

I'm not saying it's a good idea just that it's done through choice and not forced in them.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#237

Post by acct1771 »

volkl48 wrote: post #173
acct1771 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a drive thru employee. Or an Uber driver trying to make minimum wage. Hm.

A drive thru employee works a scheduled shift and when it's over they're done. I don't see how that example works with this topic of overtime/overwork.

Most drive thru chains are using stopclocks to time how fast they get your food to you, from speaker to pull off..and it's not a reasonable metric.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#238

Post by learc83 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #217
learc83 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of things are true, so what's your point?

Ali Baba is the Amazon of China. It is enormously profitable. I assume that in return for working so hard, the employees are paid quite well, or else they would find better jobs. I guess the unsupported claim that they're "ill-compensated" out of the blue was what annoyed me.

It looks like the average senior software engineer salary at Alibaba is around $30k.

That's well above the average annual salary in China, but it's about average for a software developer, and no one is going going to become a millionaire working for those wages.

Also long hours are normal in China. If your choice is to work for one of 50 companies that all have insane schedules, it's hardly informed consent.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#240

Post by koonsolo »

matz1 wrote: post #224
bdavisx wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between that and working 7-8 hours with fewer breaks? Answer: The 7-8 hour person will create better products with fewer bugs (all else being equal).

The difference is it enable you to work more (for those who want it). > The 7-8 hour person will create better products with fewer bugs the 12 hour person with sufficient breaks can't do that ? whats the reasoning ?

The 12 hour person might actually be a 3 hour person. It's just fooling yourself that you "work" 12 hours a day.

Maybe I'll put my bed in the office, that way I can "work" the full 8 hours ;).

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