The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College • Hacker News Board

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#231

Post by User23 » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 6:13 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #198

snide wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was exactly my problem with College and why I didn't succeed there. I came from a really good high school that offered a breadth of knowledge across fields. When I went to college (granted in 1998) to become a "web designer" the curriculum and training was just not there. My first year was taking variations of the same math courses, the same english courses and a couple comp sci courses (teaching Java). It was h…

I don’t know about your school, but most of the useful classes generally occur later on. So, dropping out after a year means you missed out on the most useful parts. It might seem wasteful, but gateway classes are what allow upper level courses to assume basic competency and move much faster. I had a computer architecture class where one assignment was to write a fairly simple program in x86 ASM and the handholding w…

Parent evidently came from a college preparatory school. Since most high schools don’t actually prepare students for college, freshman and sometimes sophomore year are remedial education for those unfortunates. Anyone who attended a prep school is going to be bored out of their skull by that crap. As far as I can tell the solution is to allow opting out of the remedial classes, but they are a profit center so good luck. APs help a bit, but not nearly enough.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#232

Post by dsajames » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 6:50 AM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

This is often dragged out whenever "liberal education" is justified. It's overrated. My friends who went to college are not $50-$200k more expansively educated than those who didn't.

Also, libraries, cheap Kindle books, YouTube, and other internet resources are freely/cheaply available.

Those who want to learn will do so and can for the price of a tablet or less. This reminds me of the scene in Good Will Hunting where the Harvard student is brought down for his overpriced education that could be gotten for a few bucks in late fees at the library.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#233

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 7:35 AM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #143

mixmastamyk wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite advice to the contrary the first step in the hiring funnel for coveted dev positions is to throw out applications w/o a four year degree. Ask me how I know. A bit different than IT, but related.

> Ask me how I know. How do you know?

When applying for coveted positions in my city, I’m immediately disqualified despite twenty years experience in what they seek. Has been going on for years.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#234

Post by GarvielLoken » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 9:36 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #210

jinfiesto wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, being exposed to other people's ideas within your discipline of choice is important. You learn a lot faster when you're plugged into a network of brains that are all generally oriented in the same direction. College isn't the only place to find a good network of brains to plug into for your field, but it is convenient, and the barrier to entry (rapidly less so) is relatively low.

> , but it is convenient, and the barrier to entry (rapidly less so) is relatively low. Quite the opposite. The barrier to entry of being required to spend 10s of thousands of dollars per year is extremely high and has only been increasing over the last 2 decades. Perhaps college would have been the best option for getting a "well rounded education" at it's price point a couple decades ago, when it was 1/4th the cost…

What do you mean? Collage and University is free. You only have to pay for study material and rent! And the Government provide you with free studygrants and loans at an affordable rate and payback plan.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#235

Post by GarvielLoken » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #31

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

Well it's also that you don't know what you don't know. The University programs are made by smart people with a good learning and a wealth of experiences and they design courses that goes all the way to the state of the art.

To say that you do that on your own is hubris.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#236

Post by loveyourmother » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 10:10 AM UTC

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

> rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Skilled trades can be done anywhere in the world. You are not tied to a production line.

I have seen all the options being discussed here. I joined the Army and lived abroad for years in Europe. When I came home I joined a union with a 4-year apprentice plan. It was only 4 weeks of school a year with the rest being learning on the job.

At night, I went to college with GI bill. After I finished a 2-year degree I started traveling to work. We built and refinished some amazing hotels and residential buildings. Visiting and living in major cities on the east and west coast.

I can use my "trade skill" anywhere in the world. I would suggest any young kid learn a trade. Someone has to build that high-tower so the smarts can look down on us. From their cubical.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#237

Post by EpicEng » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #223

EpicEng wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I blame the recession more than any stigma. There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades. For at least thirty years we have been telling our children that, in order to be successful, they need to go to college. We remind them of this constantly; college is the goal. That message implies that anything else is less than. There is definitely a stigma regarding trade skills, but not necessarily one…

Consider re reading the rest of the parent comment...

In what way does that alter or qualify the statement "There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades"?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#238

Post by redsavagefiero » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

When I was born it was still possible to learn your trade (engineer, programmer) without too much onus if you didn't attend college. Without college now your options are strictly limited. This is one of the reasons why we have a real problem in the US: those who are capable and self/job taught but discriminated against and those who didn't have (self imposed or otherwise) difficulties during school years and were encouraged or raised for success.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#239

Post by AtomicOrbital » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

The essential benefit of a quality education is the person has learned how to learn ... the Greeks nailed this by teaching the trivium : grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric ... armed with this educational foundation the person can listen, speak and write on any topic ... how ? because they have the skills to teach themselves ... this approach to education was used in the West for 2000 years - up until about 1900 ... outsourcing education to the government which has conflicting rewards and motivations has resulted in our current malaise

Time is precious so staying in mandatory education until a person is 18 is criminal and counterproductive for many children ... a resurgence of quality trade schools is happening and we as perspective employers need to step up and hire based on a real time assessment of those trivium qualities not on bloated automated parsing of CVs

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#240

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

dustindiamond wrote: post #135

zanny wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that expansive view should be coming way, way earlier than high school. How about before you beat the curiosity and sense of wonder out of 5-8 year olds with times tables, memorizing the dates presidents were born, and repeating the word "prepositional phrase" a thousand times - that would be a good time to start.

Should parents have no responsibility in this regard? It isn’t the elementary school’s child.

Flat out, you can't leave it to parents. For example, drivers have total responsibility for their vehicles, yet cars still have all sorts of safety measures that wouldn't be necessary if drivers simply drove perfectly and never crashed. It's an acknowledgement of human failure.

Parenting is the same. Not everyone is good at it, and it's in the best interests of society to raise kids to be as productive as possible even if (and especially when) their parents don't do a good job.

Public education has been a huge net positive for society over the last few hundred years. It used to be that most people couldn't even read; such people in the modern information economy would just be total drags on public resources. Better to have the state educate everyone as much as possible to ensure a talented, capable, intelligent workforce and society.