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A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

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Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#231

Post by VonGallifrey »

rhinoceraptor wrote: post #181
VonGallifrey wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a starter project so important that it needs to be provided by the company and why in the language of choice of the candidate? How long does it take for you to setup a starter project? When I solved the challenge that we give our applicants it took me about 5 seconds to setup the project with everything I needed to solve the challenge. In any language I use it does not take long at all to setup a new project.…

It depends on the language/framework you're using, something Rails would be very easy to get up and running, but something like a modern Javascript app SSR or Webpack, Babel, etc. might be very time consuming. My point is your project should be a test of someone's actual development/programming ability, not project setup. You don't want to have people spend an hour configuring CMake or webpack.

The thing is though that we don't have the ability to setup starter projects for any language that anyone might use.

For one thing because we don't know every language and every type of project you might use. For instance I don't think we have anyone that could setup a JavaScript SSR app. I certainly have no idea how that works. I am not a JavaScript developer. If you want to solve our challenge that way then you are certainly welcome to do so, but in that case you would need to set it up yourself. If setting up a JavaScript SSR is time consuming or a major hurdle to you then maybe use something else? If we where providing starter projects JavaScript SSR wouldn't be one we would offer anyways.

CMake isn't that much to set up for simple projects if you know CMake.

I personally think it is fair to include project setup in this test, because it will show me how well you understand the tools you use.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#232

Post by JustSomeNobody »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #55
jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do…

It is interesting that you use, “... willing to put more effort...”. It isn’t about will, it’s about time. But hey, if we’re going to generalize, I bet a dev with a family is more “willing” to do hard work for a company than some single dev.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#233

Post by FiddlyPack »

nostrebored wrote: post #229
FiddlyPack wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I went interviewing, that’s exactly what I did for the take home projects: hire a sitter.

When you're looking at $60 an interview and looking at probably 10+ interviews to find a good fit then why am I going to spend $600 when I can brush up on information that I already know from school and work at a fraction of the cost?

It’s a place you want to work? I’ve never done more than 3 interviews in a go, but I also only apply to jobs I really want.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#234

Post by majkinetor »

nasalgoat wrote: post #145
kokokokoko wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been in this industry for a long time and seen a lot, this still baffles me. Who agrees to being on call 24/7 for a week? Especially when you are getting paid a typical professional salary? It seems absurd. I've always been active after hours and willing to jump in when things happen. But this idea that you are essentially working (since you need to always be somewhere you can start working within…

Going on 25 years now of being oncall. It's very, very good incentive to make sure the systems are optimized and working nicely. I get a page about once a month, maybe. Because I do my job.

This.

Automate well enough and you almost never get called.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#235

Post by sh87 »

grogenaut wrote: post #134
courtf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

No but I'd have an architect give me plans for a house written out. I'm not hiring artists I'm hiring engineer's. I'm not hiring your for your gorgeous code in x language, I'm hiring for problem solving skills and communication. And I do let people use computer or whiteboard, computer tends to more complicated logistically (wifi, preference of ide, power, logins, etc). A whiteboard only fails to work if I don't have…

For Godsakes drop the architect - sw developer analogy already ! Its broken in so many ways. A developer must be able to produce code that works - compiles and runs and solves the problem at hand.

Bonus points for making code reusable, reliable, readable, testable, functional or what-the-heck-ever-able.

Unless you write code and run and compile it, there's nothing to be discussed.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#236

Post by SamReidHughes »

BurningFrog wrote: post #133
thomascgalvin wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, if you implement a linked list in production code, you've almost certainly made a mistake. My point is that a linked list is such a simple concept that anyone with real programming experience should be able to write a basic implementation. It's a Shibboleth; I only care about your ability to perform the task because it tells me something else about you.

OK, I have to kinda agree. It almost levels the playing field in the sense that since no one actually writes these things, we're probably all equally half clumsy with them :)

For linked lists I'd regard the question really being about whether the candidate understands pointers.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#237

Post by ninja10 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #60
jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Hacker rank allows a company to set up a time limited programming challenge. The company gets back a score based on how many of the tests were passed and the code itself. Maybe not a bad means of ensuring that “this should only take an hour of your time” really means that. The flip side is that fast and good aren’t one in the same, but I don’t think there’s any perfect answers here.

A lot of these hacker- rank like coding tests often require some extensive preparation. I've used codility (I think that was the one ), and it actually mentioned that ideally it requires at least 2-3 weeks of preparation or more.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#238

Post by IshKebab »

mikekchar wrote: post #214
IshKebab wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That hasn't been my experience at all. The opposite in fact. Sure the biggest problems aren't solved in 5 minutes at a whiteboard, but they are solved by people who are able to think on their feet at a whiteboard discussion.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but when the decision is made on your feet at a whiteboard, only the people who are able to think on their feet at a whiteboard discussion can participate. If you have a whiteboard discussion and then say, "come back to me tomorrow with specific feedback" -- and privately ask people directly who you know are unlikely to make comments in public, I think you will get a completely diff…

I think you missed my point. Hard problems are not solved at whiteboards (usually). But the ability to "do whiteboards" seems to correlate with the ability to solve hard problems.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#239

Post by nkingsy »

jboy55 wrote: post #105
nkingsy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems so simple to just say “let us know when you have 1 hour to do this take home and we will send it to you at that time. Sumbissions will be accepted for one hour after we send you the coding challenge” Problem solved

I'd say in the list of companies, probably 2% of the 'take home projects' describe that. A one hour question is most of the time the phone screen or the replacement of it with an automated online exam.

When they say "take 1-2 hours on this" I take them at their word and do just that. On more that one occasion it has cost me an onsite.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#240

Post by 01100011 »

bartread wrote: post #141
codingdave wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is often a great disappointment to people looking for jobs when they figure out that employers just don't care if they miss out on someone. They are trying to avoid a bad hire more than they need to hit a 100% rate identifying all good hires. (Not to mention, if you cannot perform under stress, that is a negative aspect of your capabilities, and a fair reason to bring in someone who doesn't fail under stress.)

> They are trying to avoid a bad hire more than they need to hit a 100% rate identifying all good hires. This is absolutely correct. I mean, sure, hiring great people is hard enough that I hate to miss out on somebody great, but not nearly as much as I hate making a bad hire. Bad hires cost a lot, and not just directly (cost of hiring, salary, etc.), but in time, stress, and motivation of the people they work with.

I don't like the term 'bad hire' as it grossly simplifies things. I think some companies are better off letting in some types of bad hires to acquire the rock star introverts(some of my best performing co-workers would fail miserably at modern interviews). I'm not saying that hiring a sociopath won't kill your team's productivity. I'm saying hiring someone who doesn't know algorithms won't necessarily kill your team. There is probably grunt work you could pass on to them and actually figure out how to make them work. I don't agree with this modern approach to having a moat around your devs in all cases. The reality is more nuanced
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