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China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

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Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#231

Post by gherkin1 »

arduanika wrote: post #5

"...and if the dam breaks open many years too soon..." Perhaps interesting to note the origin of this name for spacecraft. The legend "Chang'e flies to the moon" (嫦娥奔月) lies behind the Mid-Autumn Festival (featuring mooncakes, as it were). Point is, the names of Chinese space missions are every bit as carefully steeped in tradition as, say, Mercury/Gemini/Apollo.

Queqiao(magpies bridge), name of the relay satellite for Chang'e is from another Chinese tale 'The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl '[0], related to Qixi Festival[1]. Queqiao is the bridge built by magpies to help Zhinü and Niulang to reunite.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cowherd_and_the_Weaver_Gir...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qixi_Festival

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#232

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

En_gr_Student wrote: post #230
black-tea wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun shines on the "dark side" just as much as it shines on the near side.

Think about what you just said, in context of why one side is light and one is dark. Where does the light come from?

The "dark side" of the moon refers to the side that is always pointed away from Earth. It has day/night cycles just like the rest of the moon does.

Also try not to take this condescending tone with people. Especially when you're wrong.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#233

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

microdrum wrote: post #165
dopylitty wrote: post #113

The headline should be "China claims to successfully land..." Given the government and business tendency in China to make claims that later turn out to be fabricated nothing they announce should be taken as true without independent verification.

Seconded. That is the proper contextualization for news out of CH.

Switzerland?

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#234

Post by stcredzero »

swampthing wrote: post #220
stcredzero wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the Chinese-born people I know would be pretty surprised if any non-Chinese person could read Chinese. My experience is that attitudes are often quite different if you look like a Chinese person.

Well, that makes sense. If they thought you were a Chinese person, I could see why they would have asked you if you could read Chinese.

By that point in the conversation, however, I had already conveyed that my parents were from Korea, and I was born and had grown up here.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#235

Post by stcredzero »

godelski wrote: post #216
swampthing wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very interesting to hear. I wonder if it is something specific to that corporation, or perhaps your role at the corporation, though? All the Chinese-born people I know would be pretty surprised if any non-Chinese person could read Chinese.

As someone who is learning Chinese (and VERY bad at it), (almost) every Chinese person I've met has been super encouraging and helpful. Most of them are surprised I'm learning it at all. But they also express encouragement differently, so I'm wondering if it is a misunderstanding.

That could well be. Some aspects of culture are quite subtle. There was this thing where, whenever some driver in traffic made me brake hard, my Chinese born wife would shout, "BE CAREFUL!" Well, here's the thing: I am very careful. I couldn't be blamed for any of those incidents. It's precisely that I'm careful that I was able to avoid a collision. It seemed very unfair that I should be blamed for any of these incidents. (Example, the car ahead of me spots a parking space at the last minute, then slams on his brakes to get the parking spot.)

So after about the 5th time like that, we had the argument. It turns out that she was just being scared and telling me to be careful, not knowing how an English speaker would take that contextually.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#236

Post by stcredzero »

mrunkel wrote: post #226
stcredzero wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legend "Chang'e flies to the moon" (嫦娥奔月) lies behind the Mid-Autumn Festival (featuring mooncakes, as it were). Point is, the names of Chinese space missions are every bit as carefully steeped in tradition as, say, Mercury/Gemini/Apollo. The People's Republic of China doesn't think of itself as a "Nation State." Instead, it thinks of itself as a "civilization state." A part of PRC's self appointed charge is to p…

Well, it is actually a shame. And by that I mean why wouldn't it benefit anyone to gain access to what is probably as much writing about philosophy, history, etc. as what one is currently exposed to? You should also keep in mind that the people that are saying this to you have already learned a complete another language and alphabet (since they are presumably communicating with you in English).

Well, it is actually a shame.

Asking someone to be ashamed of not having entirely elective knowledge isn't "live and let live." Nor would that strike me as being likely to be productive. Instead, you should describe how desirable and rewarding that knowledge is.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#237

Post by avmich »

Rooster61 wrote: post #142
metta2uall wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USSR and USA started cooperating in the 1970s and this has had very good results. For example being able to get to the ISS after the Space Shuttle accident, and arguably in easing political & military tensions. They continued to compete as well.

> very good results with diminishing returns. Post-Apollo funding was/is but a shadow of NASA's glory days. As soon as the military interest is gone, it's inevitable that a program will lose financial support.

> with diminishing returns

Let's see. From the start of Space Age, October 4th, 1957, to the peak of NASA funding in 1966 - almost 9 years. To the last Apollo flight to the Moon in 1972 - a bit over 15 years. Advancements: unmanned space flight, manned LEO flight, manned flight to the Moon and back (overall manned flights ~43, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights ).

From the Apollo Soyuz Test Project in 1975 to today in 2019 - 44 years. 3 times as much. Advancements: expanded unmanned space flight, permanent manned LEO outpost, reuseable vehicles (Gemini, STS, TKS, EB, X-37), commercial space flight, international space cooperation (overall manned flights ~270).

Per dollar modern space flights are quite competitive with 1970-s. Manned spaceflight is also safer than it used to be. Per unit of time... Mars flights are quite more robust, but Venus is kinda forgotten. Outer Solar system objects are visited more frequently... Russia retracted from unmanned spaceflight... India, China, Europe are growing...

I don't think funding is the only criteria here. In some aspects Apollo project catapulted humanity to the higher frontiers which are hard to keep, but some other indicators point to steady progress everywhere with way more sustainable longer term approach.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#238

Post by avmich »

computerex wrote: post #88
eps wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russians were on a verge of manned mission, but the program stalled with Korolev's death and then scrapped altogether for non-technical reasons, primarily because of the regime change.

No they weren't. What's your source? Their solution (N1) had inherent flaws that would have taken a long time to work out.

No it hadn't. There were problems with engines, which were being rectified, moving from NK-15 to NK-33. Fifth flight of N-1 would likely use NK-33 and had a high chance to succeed, given reliability of multiple-use NK-33s and almost-successful first stage flight in 4th attempt.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#239

Post by avmich »

computerex wrote: post #148
eps wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Documentary on the subject that interviewed people from the project. What's your source for the "would have taken a long time" bit? Edit - ok, read up on it and N1 was not indeed flightworthy. There is however little information on the nature of technical issues and how long they would've taken to resolve. The program collapsed first and foremost because of the politics and personnel/finance issues.

The N1 used closed loop cycles, which was something new at the time and was a lot harder to get right. Also the n1 had some 30 engines that all had to operate perfectly so the inherent risk of failure was higher. The rocket was never even man rated.

USA rocketry school tradition of counting engines by chambers makes R-7 a rocket which uses 32 engines at liftoff 4 main chambers for each of 4 RD-107 and 1 RD-108 (20 chambers) and 12 steering chambers (each with about 3 tons of thrust, about as much as a chamber of British Gamma-8 engine) - more than N-1. Yet R-7 is a pretty reliable rocket overall. Also Falcon Heavy has 27 engines, which not too many complain about.

No, engines didn't need to operate perfectly. N-1 has less gross liftoff mass (GLOM) than Saturn-5, yet N-1 had higher liftoff trust. That's partially because it was supposed to complete the mission with up to 4 engines out during flight.

Re: China lands Chang'e-4 on far side of Moon

#240

Post by avmich »

billfruit wrote: post #139
dandare wrote: post #77

How much lighter is the lander compared to Apollo moon lander? I mean, how far are the Chinese from sending people to the moon? The Russians landed a Lunokhod too but were very far from sending people to the moon.

Only recently did I come to learn, the Soviets had landed a Lunokhod, which actually returned sample of lunar soil back to earth.

USSR landed Lunokhod-1 and Lunokhod-2, and also returned lunar soil samples in programs Luna-16, Luna-20 and Luna-24. Those are all separate flights.
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