Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 309 posts

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#231

Post by rtkwe »

runeks wrote: post #206
imgabe wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e. were they a licensed engineer. I think most product companies are essentially self-insured. If Ford releases the Pinto…

> It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e. were they a licensed engineer. That has nothing to do with the law, though. Ie. any insurance company ought to be ab…

A law defining what make the difference between an engineer and a professional engineer though reduces rriction in that context by creating a shared definition so instead of every insurance client having to provide the documentation that their eng was a p. eng (according to that insurance company's definition) both the customer and the insurance company can just refer to the licensing board to check.

The biggest issue in this case is that the state was using it punatively against a person who was not providing a p eng sign off or advertising services as a p eng. Having a regulatory shared definition is fine and helps smooth commerce.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#232

Post by nkurz »

jdeibele wrote: post #160
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should we call the people who stoke fires on steam locomotives then?

Traditionally they're called firemen. Steam locomotives aren't commonly used anymore, so I assume you're making a joke about somebody on a train being a "firefighter".

I think instead he's making a joke about locomotive engineers. Which is actually a good point, but marred by couple issues. First, the "engineer" is the person who drives the train, rather than the person feeding the fire. Second, the term is only frequently used in English speaking North America. Further description here:

  Why are US train drivers called engineers?
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-32758223

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#233

Post by ilikehurdles »

abduhl wrote: post #158
4thaccount wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…

Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…

Some clients of certain kinds of engineering demand this certification. But not all clients, and not all engineering fields. A post-academic license doesn’t an engineer make. It’s like saying you can’t call yourself tech support without getting a Red Hat Certification (ignoring the fact that it’s easier to get a PE paper than an RHCE)— no it’s an unfortunately named certification lacking which just precludes you from certain jobs requiring a PE.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#234

Post by garmaine »

ovao wrote: post #223
garmaine wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a mall cop a cop?

"Cop" is colloquial. A mall cop is a "security guard"; a cop is typically a "police officer" or "law enforcement officer".

Mall cops are referred to in the industry as a “private police force.”

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#235

Post by SilasX »

chrisseaton wrote: post #203
grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

I remember there was a case where an American academic headed a scientific organization in Germany but was told he couldn’t call himself Dr. because his doctorate was from America.

Found a link about it: http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/title-fight-us-aca...

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#236

Post by rightbyte »

deogeo wrote: post #222
rightbyte wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, yeah. It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something without proper legal papers. He complained over the yellow light timing ...

> It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something without proper legal papers. Suppose he had. Suppose he found a bridge suspicious, did some calculations, and told a newspaper/transport safety agency about it. Should that be illegal, because the state of Oregon didn't give him permission? Is it okay to very literally fine someone for 'unlicensed use of math'? Thankfully the ruling very stro…

I agree. I meant a calculations for building a bridge, and having responsibility for it.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#237

Post by ip26 »

4thaccount wrote: post #144
gerdesj wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a licensed professional engineer, I ..." He is an engineer as far as I am concerned (and time served as well as his quali): Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from Sweden

A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…

He was not engaging in professional practice, it was civic practice. You don't need an economics degree to comment on a tax measure.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#238

Post by [deleted] »

ThrowMeDown01 wrote: post #191
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there are a small, specialized clique of Engineers who have professional certification, and a huge population of engineers who don't have this certification and are not required to have it. The boundary between the two groups is fuzzy and a bit contentious, with each side seeking to expand their domain. There's no such confusion when it comes to the other professions listed, no huge gray area wher…

> here everyone calls you a physician even though you only work with animals Just an aside, but that is a gigantic undersell of veterinarians. The difficulties of becoming one aside, just seeing that "humans-only" doctors only work on one kind of ape, compared to the many very different kinds of life forms a veterinarian has to deal with (of course they specialize too), I don't understand why one would think a veteri…

[deleted]

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#239

Post by vonmoltke »

naasking wrote: post #209
Gibbon1 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

> Everything is about process, audit and testing And how do you know the process, auditing and testing was done? With documentation signed by someone who can verify this and is legally liable if it wasn't done properly.

When I worked at Raytheon, there were no PEs n staff signing off on process documents or conducting audits of our design, manufacturing, or testing processes. Processes were developed in accordance with relevant ISO/IEEE/ASME/whatever standards, and these standards were periodically audited by external people certified by the corresponding standards body. While many of the older engineers had PEs, I do not recall any position that required one.

As for legal liability, that falls primarily with the company. The chances that an individual is going to be held legally liable for a process failure in a corporation is very low, and whether or not that person has a PE will be irrelevant.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#240

Post by jpambrun »

chrisseaton wrote: post #203
grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

In Quebec (not sure about the rest of Canada), you can't call yourself engineer if not a member of the ordre des ingénieurs. You can sign b.eng, but not eng. You can say you have a Batchelor of engineering, but not that you are an engineer.
Post reply on HN